There are a lot of main characters in the second Trump administration. Donald Trump himself, of course, but also Elon Musk, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and JD Vance. Russell Vought does not make that list. The soft-spoken bureaucrat was recently confirmed to lead the Office of Management and Budget, not exactly a sexy post. His name isnt well-known outside of policy circles. But it probably should be. I think you can almost view Elon Musk and DOGE, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, as Russ Voughts shock troops, Simon Rabinovitch, US economics editor for The Economist, told Today, Explained co-host Noel King. Musk is kind of hyperactive and moving every which way, every direction, but ultimately the person whos really leading this is Russ Vought. And hes the general. Hes also the scholar to the extent that there is a legal justification, this is something that Russ Vought is working on and has been working on for years leading up to the moment that we now face today.Rabinovitch talked to King about Voughts backstory, his Christian nationalist beliefs, and where he wants to take the country in the second Trump administration. Below is a transcript of their conversation, edited for length and clarity. Listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts.Simon RabinovitchVought has something of a blue-collar background. He had a a big family, and is the youngest of seven children. Hes talked about having a very strong Christian upbringing. He went to college at an evangelical Christian school. All of this matters because part of the way that he views his role in government is not just trying to change the way the presidency operates, but also trying to infuse it with Christian nationalism, his kind of self-defined ideology. He spent many, many years as a staffer for Republicans in DC, and worked his way up the totem pole to become a key player in Trump 1.0. Now hes one of the few returnees in Trump 2.0; hes back in the very role that he was in at the end of Trumps first term: director of the Office of Management and Budget. Its one of these agencies that not many people have heard of, but it actually wields a great degree of power and even more power in Russ Voughts hands.Noel KingWhen Russ Vought says his politics are Christian nationalist. What does that mean?Simon RabinovitchThe way that he describes it is that he wants to basically bring Christianity into all aspects of society, especially government. Its not that he wants to do away with the separation between church and state, but he believes that Christianity is a formative foundational influence in the way that the American government operates, and that has been muffled for too long.Christian nationalism doesnt just give him sort of a guidepost in terms of his views on abortion, but also brings a certain righteousness of conviction to the way that he approaches his work, a belief that in some cases the ends justify the means.Its one of the reasons why in Trumps first administration, no matter what President Trump did, Vought stood beside him. He thought Trump was a key ally for propelling his vision. You can hear that in the way that he talks and you can read it in the way that he writes. And its sort of inflected with these righteous tones. He talks about the storm clouds being upon us, and the duty is ours, the results are Gods. Christian nationalism is a really, really important motivational force for him.Noel KingIve wondered about his speech. He can be quite mean. He talked about wanting to traumatize civil servants. Make them realize that nobody likes them. If we were 5 years old, we would say, Thats not very nice. Now that were older, we would say, Dont dont talk about traumatizing people, its unnecessary.Simon RabinovitchIts really weird, because if you meet him and Ive had a long conversation with him he has this very scholarly demeanor. Hes always very buttoned up, with a very nicely trimmed beard. Hes soft-spoken. But when you actually listen to what hes saying, its really quite radical. I think this is really just a reflection of the strength of his convictions: This is stuff that he truly, deeply believes in. And more than that, I think that the manner in which he speaks is something that helps to inspire people who work with him. He has a devoted group of small allies who share his vision. Hes not transactional. He might say hes not corruptible. This is just stuff that he really wants to do.Noel KingDonald Trump has famously engaged in a lot of behavior that is not particularly Christian. How did these two men get together? Simon RabinovitchWhen Vought was a young Republican staffer, he was very much focused on bread-and-butter fiscal conservatism. But over the years, he got into more of a MAGA-style way of looking at government and ideology. And he was somebody who got involved in the Trump transition team. There wasnt an incredibly deep bench of MAGA-aligned people back in 2017. And so he was appointed to the OMB; he was a deputy director. Eventually, in the final year, he became director of OMB. I think the thing for Vought is that he sees Trump as a vehicle for pushing forward his ideas. So he talks about the fact that all of these anti-abortion politicians in the Republican Party failed to do anything, but it was Trump who ultimately was the one who, through his Supreme Court appointments, was able to kill Roe v. Wade. Vought sees Trump as a critical ally, even if he doesnt agree with him on a day-to-day basis or on many issues. Noel KingFor four years, the Trump vehicle had more or less stalled. The president lost the 2020 election and was cast out into Florida. What was Russ Vought doing then?Simon RabinovitchAt the very end of Trump 1.0, the Trump team began to realize this Russ Vought guy has some ideas that are actually very, very powerful and might be electorally useful. In his last year, when he was running the Office of Management and Budget, Vought was the one who wrote a memo saying that the federal government should stop all DEI training and critical race theory. That obviously became a very powerful trope for Trump in his more recent election campaign. And Vought was also the one who was the architect of Schedule F, the idea that you could basically remove all career protections for civil servants. Once Trump is out of office, Vought forms this organization, Center for Renewing America, and basically begins to create the legal blueprint for a lot of the actions that weve seen in the last couple of weeks so ideas for ways to give the president much more power over spending, which is known as impoundment power; thinking about ways to get Schedule F back, thinking about ways to shrink the civil service. And one way in which Vought was very much involved in thinking through Trump 2.0, is that he was one of the driving forces behind Project 2025.Noel KingDonald Trump had nothing to do with Project 2025. He thought it was ridiculous and abysmal.Simon RabinovitchExactly. [Laughs.] Trump denied on the campaign trail that Project 2025 had anything to do with his future administration. But, of course, as weve seen, hes appointed many of the people who were involved in drafting Project 2025 first and foremost is Russ Vought.Vought wrote a chapter in Project 2025 about how to use the executive office of the president, and was totally transparent with his intentions. He laid out a blueprint of how he would use the OMB, to shake up the civil service, to traumatize it, to shrink it, and then to push through very robust ideas. Noel KingWhat is Russell Voughts plan to deal with that, to deal with all these lawsuits the Trump administration faces that attempt to shut down their policies? Simon RabinovitchHes certainly no dummy. Hes anticipated that attempts to reshape the presidency will end up in the courts and probably ultimately will end up at the Supreme Court. I think he isnt afraid that the courts are going to block his agenda. I think rather, he wants the courts to be the jurisdiction that determines whether his interpretation of the law is the correct one. If he succeeds, he will have fundamentally redrawn the bounds of presidential power and brought America back to kind of a late 19th-century version of the way that the White House could operate.See More: