• After the flood: Malecón de Villahermosa in Villahermosa, Mexico, by Taller Mauricio Rocha, TaAU and Alejandro Castro

    With reclaimed land previously allocated to cars, the Grijalva River boardwalk offers generous public spaces and reconnects the Mexican city of Villahermosa to its river
    In Villahermosa, nature reigns supreme. Surrounded by rivers, lagoons, wild vegetation and the scorching heat of a humid tropical climate, the city’s identity is shaped by intense and unpredictable natural forces. The capital of the Mexican state of Tabasco was founded in 1564 on the banks of the Grijalva River, a vital trade route that has significantly shaped the city’s development. For locals, the river has long been both blessing and threat; major floods have been recorded since the 17th century. A devastating flood in 2007 submerged what officials estimated to be 80 per cent of the city, damaging or destroying more than 120,000 homes.
    In the aftermath of the inundation, high concrete retaining walls were built along both banks of the Grijalva River to prevent further flooding. While this was an understandable measure at first glance, it consequently caused residents to lose both their visual and physical connection with the river. As a result, people moved, particularly from the western bank where the historical centre is located, to new areas further away from the Grijalva River. The riverfront was left to deteriorate into a troubled zone. On the eastern bank, the neighbourhood of Gaviotas was already considered unsafe before the flood, yet it maintained more of its residential character.
    In 2022, 15 years after the dramatic flood, then‑president Andrés Manuel López Obrador, more commonly known as AMLO, announced the construction of a new 6km‑long riverfront promenade in Villahermosa, the capital of his home state. The idea was to enable the population to once again take pride in and live with their river, looking to Paris and Rome as examples. The monumental task, with its large urban scale and the population’s psychological trauma, was entrusted to the Ministry of Agricultural, Territorial and Urban Developmentas part of their Programa de Mejoramiento Urbano. This programme aimed to use architecture as an ‘instrument of social transformation’. High expectations were placed on these projects; architects were asked to create ‘places of national pride’ while improving everyday living conditions.
    The architectural trio of Alejandro Castro Jiménez Labora, Mauricio Rocha Iturbide, and Óscar Rodríguez Castañeda, along with their teams, were commissioned to design a linear park along both banks of the Grijalva. Each architect contributed their strength: Castro brought his expertise in poetic urban furniture; Rocha his sensitive and atmospheric architectural approach; and Rodríguez his thoughtful urban and traffic planning skills. The SEDATU team provided technical and participatory expertise, enabling contextual sensitivity by sharing essential information about the site’s topography, soil conditions and water flows.
    From the city’s existing observatory, the Torre del Caballero landmark, visitors enjoy an excellent view over the redesigned riverbanks. The historical centre and the Gaviotas neighbourhood now form a single ensemble, while the intervention carefully responds to the different conditions found along the length of the river. The project’s main objective is to reclaim some of the land previously allocated to cars and create a promenade for pedestrians and slower vehicles, punctuated with public spaces and facilities. On both sides of the river, cars are now limited to just one or two grey asphalt lanes. Running alongside are generous cycle paths and pedestrian walkways made of earth‑coloured concrete. Speed bumps in the same material and colour connect the pavements on either side of the road while helping to limit traffic speed to 30km/h, further enhancing pedestrian safety.
    Several design elements are found along almost the entire promenade. A ribbon of light‑grey benches delineates the edge of the elevated riverfront; stone walls, steps and ramps are used to negotiate the slight changes in level; planters and lush vegetation soften the transition to the walkways, creating a welcome buffer from street traffic. The most visually striking components are the tall, red‑pigmented concrete light poles on the elevated path, adorned with elegant L‑shaped steel light fixtures, which establish a strong and cohesive visual rhythm.
    Only upon closer inspection you notice the 2007 retaining walls peeking through the dense tropical vegetation. Removing these unattractive concrete barriers was never an option; they stand as a symbol of successful flood protection for the local population. The architectural team ingeniously built the elevated promenade atop the existing wall – an effective concealment from the street side while simultaneously inviting residents to reconnect with the Grijalva. 
    At the foot of the observatory, directly below the retaining wall, the earth‑toned concrete platforms of the Carlos A Madrazo Becerra Park stretch towards the river. Visitors can access the park via a ramp from the promenade on the western bank or by ferry from the opposite side. In the park, concrete furnishings invite visitors to linger among tropical vegetation set against tall natural stone walls. Importantly, it is a space that is durable and requires minimal maintenance – a survival formula for public parks in the Mexican context. Small traces on the concrete benches reveal that the park weathered its baptism of fire last year: the design accommodates the river’s natural dynamics, adapting to fluctuating water levels without compromising public safety. Beyond providing much‑needed shade, the extensive planting of native, low‑maintenance plants on both riverbanks has improved soil stability.
    Above the park, on a broad extension of the elevated pathway, stand three long, elegant buildings with large cantilevered roofs supported by hefty beams resting on distinctive double columns. The tall glass walls that enclose the interiors are set back, creating a visual flow between interior and exterior spaces. While the beams evoke timber construction, they – like the columns – are made of the same pigmented concrete used for the promenade paving. Despite their refined composition, these structures have remained largely unused since their completion over a year ago, neither serving their intended function as restaurants nor hosting alternative uses. Even the beautifully designed park sees only limited public engagement. The ambitious goal of SEDATU with the PMU projects to ‘counteract violence and strengthen the social fabric’ appears, for now, to have fallen short in this area. According to national statistics, Villahermosa ranks first in perceived insecurity among Mexican cities. This sense of insecurity is tangible on the promenade by the city centre, where buildings that look abandoned contribute to an atmosphere of neglect.
    The situation is markedly different on the opposite riverbank, in the Gaviotas neighbourhood. Construction of the 3.5km promenade on this side began in 2021 with three open pavilions housing several small kiosks, which quickly evolved into popular taco stands. The Plaza Solidaridad, revitalised by the architectural trio, draws people from the surrounding vibrant neighbourhood. Further south, the final section that was built is a large sports area and children’s playground, which were embraced by the local community even before their official inauguration in February 2024. Especially after sunset, when the air cools, the well‑lit Gaviotas riverfront comes to life. During daylight hours, however, air‑conditioned shopping centres remain the preferred gathering places for the residents of Villahermosa.
    Rocha describes the city’s new promenade as a ‘jazz composition’, a striking metaphor that speaks of rhythmic complexity and the freedom to improvise. With just a few designed elements and carefully selected colours, the architects have harmoniously layered the river’s urban spaces. The project is earning international recognition but, in Mexico, it faced sharp criticism and was overshadowed by accusations of nepotism. Castro is a friend of AMLO’s son, and the fact that the intervention took place in the home state of the then‑president, coupled with its substantial budget by local standards, drew considerable attention. According to residents, this undermined public acceptance. When asked about the negative press, Rocha speaks of the need to develop a ‘crisis muscle’; he says architects working on public projects in Mexico must ‘let go of perfectionism’ as much lies beyond their control. 
    During AMLO’s six‑year term, which ended in 2024, SEDATU implemented 1,300 PMU projects in 193 highly marginalised municipalities across the country. While many of these interventions undoubtedly improved people’s quality of life, the Villahermosa riverside project also reveals architecture’s limitations, exposing some of the programme’s weaknesses: architectural interventions often act as sticking plasters on an extensively damaged urban fabric. They are handed over from a national ministry with comprehensive expertise and funding to local governments lacking the means to sustain them. Although SEDATU conducted participatory consultations during the project’s implementation, this engagement was absent once the project was completed. Public acceptance and appropriation can take time; what this project does is send an invitation out.

    2025-06-05
    Reuben J Brown

    Share

    AR June 2025RoadsBuy Now
    #after #flood #malecón #villahermosa #mexico
    After the flood: Malecón de Villahermosa in Villahermosa, Mexico, by Taller Mauricio Rocha, TaAU and Alejandro Castro
    With reclaimed land previously allocated to cars, the Grijalva River boardwalk offers generous public spaces and reconnects the Mexican city of Villahermosa to its river In Villahermosa, nature reigns supreme. Surrounded by rivers, lagoons, wild vegetation and the scorching heat of a humid tropical climate, the city’s identity is shaped by intense and unpredictable natural forces. The capital of the Mexican state of Tabasco was founded in 1564 on the banks of the Grijalva River, a vital trade route that has significantly shaped the city’s development. For locals, the river has long been both blessing and threat; major floods have been recorded since the 17th century. A devastating flood in 2007 submerged what officials estimated to be 80 per cent of the city, damaging or destroying more than 120,000 homes. In the aftermath of the inundation, high concrete retaining walls were built along both banks of the Grijalva River to prevent further flooding. While this was an understandable measure at first glance, it consequently caused residents to lose both their visual and physical connection with the river. As a result, people moved, particularly from the western bank where the historical centre is located, to new areas further away from the Grijalva River. The riverfront was left to deteriorate into a troubled zone. On the eastern bank, the neighbourhood of Gaviotas was already considered unsafe before the flood, yet it maintained more of its residential character. In 2022, 15 years after the dramatic flood, then‑president Andrés Manuel López Obrador, more commonly known as AMLO, announced the construction of a new 6km‑long riverfront promenade in Villahermosa, the capital of his home state. The idea was to enable the population to once again take pride in and live with their river, looking to Paris and Rome as examples. The monumental task, with its large urban scale and the population’s psychological trauma, was entrusted to the Ministry of Agricultural, Territorial and Urban Developmentas part of their Programa de Mejoramiento Urbano. This programme aimed to use architecture as an ‘instrument of social transformation’. High expectations were placed on these projects; architects were asked to create ‘places of national pride’ while improving everyday living conditions. The architectural trio of Alejandro Castro Jiménez Labora, Mauricio Rocha Iturbide, and Óscar Rodríguez Castañeda, along with their teams, were commissioned to design a linear park along both banks of the Grijalva. Each architect contributed their strength: Castro brought his expertise in poetic urban furniture; Rocha his sensitive and atmospheric architectural approach; and Rodríguez his thoughtful urban and traffic planning skills. The SEDATU team provided technical and participatory expertise, enabling contextual sensitivity by sharing essential information about the site’s topography, soil conditions and water flows. From the city’s existing observatory, the Torre del Caballero landmark, visitors enjoy an excellent view over the redesigned riverbanks. The historical centre and the Gaviotas neighbourhood now form a single ensemble, while the intervention carefully responds to the different conditions found along the length of the river. The project’s main objective is to reclaim some of the land previously allocated to cars and create a promenade for pedestrians and slower vehicles, punctuated with public spaces and facilities. On both sides of the river, cars are now limited to just one or two grey asphalt lanes. Running alongside are generous cycle paths and pedestrian walkways made of earth‑coloured concrete. Speed bumps in the same material and colour connect the pavements on either side of the road while helping to limit traffic speed to 30km/h, further enhancing pedestrian safety. Several design elements are found along almost the entire promenade. A ribbon of light‑grey benches delineates the edge of the elevated riverfront; stone walls, steps and ramps are used to negotiate the slight changes in level; planters and lush vegetation soften the transition to the walkways, creating a welcome buffer from street traffic. The most visually striking components are the tall, red‑pigmented concrete light poles on the elevated path, adorned with elegant L‑shaped steel light fixtures, which establish a strong and cohesive visual rhythm. Only upon closer inspection you notice the 2007 retaining walls peeking through the dense tropical vegetation. Removing these unattractive concrete barriers was never an option; they stand as a symbol of successful flood protection for the local population. The architectural team ingeniously built the elevated promenade atop the existing wall – an effective concealment from the street side while simultaneously inviting residents to reconnect with the Grijalva.  At the foot of the observatory, directly below the retaining wall, the earth‑toned concrete platforms of the Carlos A Madrazo Becerra Park stretch towards the river. Visitors can access the park via a ramp from the promenade on the western bank or by ferry from the opposite side. In the park, concrete furnishings invite visitors to linger among tropical vegetation set against tall natural stone walls. Importantly, it is a space that is durable and requires minimal maintenance – a survival formula for public parks in the Mexican context. Small traces on the concrete benches reveal that the park weathered its baptism of fire last year: the design accommodates the river’s natural dynamics, adapting to fluctuating water levels without compromising public safety. Beyond providing much‑needed shade, the extensive planting of native, low‑maintenance plants on both riverbanks has improved soil stability. Above the park, on a broad extension of the elevated pathway, stand three long, elegant buildings with large cantilevered roofs supported by hefty beams resting on distinctive double columns. The tall glass walls that enclose the interiors are set back, creating a visual flow between interior and exterior spaces. While the beams evoke timber construction, they – like the columns – are made of the same pigmented concrete used for the promenade paving. Despite their refined composition, these structures have remained largely unused since their completion over a year ago, neither serving their intended function as restaurants nor hosting alternative uses. Even the beautifully designed park sees only limited public engagement. The ambitious goal of SEDATU with the PMU projects to ‘counteract violence and strengthen the social fabric’ appears, for now, to have fallen short in this area. According to national statistics, Villahermosa ranks first in perceived insecurity among Mexican cities. This sense of insecurity is tangible on the promenade by the city centre, where buildings that look abandoned contribute to an atmosphere of neglect. The situation is markedly different on the opposite riverbank, in the Gaviotas neighbourhood. Construction of the 3.5km promenade on this side began in 2021 with three open pavilions housing several small kiosks, which quickly evolved into popular taco stands. The Plaza Solidaridad, revitalised by the architectural trio, draws people from the surrounding vibrant neighbourhood. Further south, the final section that was built is a large sports area and children’s playground, which were embraced by the local community even before their official inauguration in February 2024. Especially after sunset, when the air cools, the well‑lit Gaviotas riverfront comes to life. During daylight hours, however, air‑conditioned shopping centres remain the preferred gathering places for the residents of Villahermosa. Rocha describes the city’s new promenade as a ‘jazz composition’, a striking metaphor that speaks of rhythmic complexity and the freedom to improvise. With just a few designed elements and carefully selected colours, the architects have harmoniously layered the river’s urban spaces. The project is earning international recognition but, in Mexico, it faced sharp criticism and was overshadowed by accusations of nepotism. Castro is a friend of AMLO’s son, and the fact that the intervention took place in the home state of the then‑president, coupled with its substantial budget by local standards, drew considerable attention. According to residents, this undermined public acceptance. When asked about the negative press, Rocha speaks of the need to develop a ‘crisis muscle’; he says architects working on public projects in Mexico must ‘let go of perfectionism’ as much lies beyond their control.  During AMLO’s six‑year term, which ended in 2024, SEDATU implemented 1,300 PMU projects in 193 highly marginalised municipalities across the country. While many of these interventions undoubtedly improved people’s quality of life, the Villahermosa riverside project also reveals architecture’s limitations, exposing some of the programme’s weaknesses: architectural interventions often act as sticking plasters on an extensively damaged urban fabric. They are handed over from a national ministry with comprehensive expertise and funding to local governments lacking the means to sustain them. Although SEDATU conducted participatory consultations during the project’s implementation, this engagement was absent once the project was completed. Public acceptance and appropriation can take time; what this project does is send an invitation out. 2025-06-05 Reuben J Brown Share AR June 2025RoadsBuy Now #after #flood #malecón #villahermosa #mexico
    WWW.ARCHITECTURAL-REVIEW.COM
    After the flood: Malecón de Villahermosa in Villahermosa, Mexico, by Taller Mauricio Rocha, TaAU and Alejandro Castro
    With reclaimed land previously allocated to cars, the Grijalva River boardwalk offers generous public spaces and reconnects the Mexican city of Villahermosa to its river In Villahermosa, nature reigns supreme. Surrounded by rivers, lagoons, wild vegetation and the scorching heat of a humid tropical climate, the city’s identity is shaped by intense and unpredictable natural forces. The capital of the Mexican state of Tabasco was founded in 1564 on the banks of the Grijalva River, a vital trade route that has significantly shaped the city’s development. For locals, the river has long been both blessing and threat; major floods have been recorded since the 17th century. A devastating flood in 2007 submerged what officials estimated to be 80 per cent of the city, damaging or destroying more than 120,000 homes. In the aftermath of the inundation, high concrete retaining walls were built along both banks of the Grijalva River to prevent further flooding. While this was an understandable measure at first glance, it consequently caused residents to lose both their visual and physical connection with the river. As a result, people moved, particularly from the western bank where the historical centre is located, to new areas further away from the Grijalva River. The riverfront was left to deteriorate into a troubled zone. On the eastern bank, the neighbourhood of Gaviotas was already considered unsafe before the flood, yet it maintained more of its residential character. In 2022, 15 years after the dramatic flood, then‑president Andrés Manuel López Obrador, more commonly known as AMLO, announced the construction of a new 6km‑long riverfront promenade in Villahermosa, the capital of his home state. The idea was to enable the population to once again take pride in and live with their river, looking to Paris and Rome as examples. The monumental task, with its large urban scale and the population’s psychological trauma, was entrusted to the Ministry of Agricultural, Territorial and Urban Development (SEDATU) as part of their Programa de Mejoramiento Urbano (Urban Improvement Programme, or PMU). This programme aimed to use architecture as an ‘instrument of social transformation’. High expectations were placed on these projects; architects were asked to create ‘places of national pride’ while improving everyday living conditions. The architectural trio of Alejandro Castro Jiménez Labora, Mauricio Rocha Iturbide, and Óscar Rodríguez Castañeda, along with their teams, were commissioned to design a linear park along both banks of the Grijalva. Each architect contributed their strength: Castro brought his expertise in poetic urban furniture; Rocha his sensitive and atmospheric architectural approach; and Rodríguez his thoughtful urban and traffic planning skills. The SEDATU team provided technical and participatory expertise, enabling contextual sensitivity by sharing essential information about the site’s topography, soil conditions and water flows. From the city’s existing observatory, the Torre del Caballero landmark, visitors enjoy an excellent view over the redesigned riverbanks. The historical centre and the Gaviotas neighbourhood now form a single ensemble, while the intervention carefully responds to the different conditions found along the length of the river. The project’s main objective is to reclaim some of the land previously allocated to cars and create a promenade for pedestrians and slower vehicles, punctuated with public spaces and facilities. On both sides of the river, cars are now limited to just one or two grey asphalt lanes. Running alongside are generous cycle paths and pedestrian walkways made of earth‑coloured concrete. Speed bumps in the same material and colour connect the pavements on either side of the road while helping to limit traffic speed to 30km/h, further enhancing pedestrian safety. Several design elements are found along almost the entire promenade. A ribbon of light‑grey benches delineates the edge of the elevated riverfront; stone walls, steps and ramps are used to negotiate the slight changes in level; planters and lush vegetation soften the transition to the walkways, creating a welcome buffer from street traffic. The most visually striking components are the tall, red‑pigmented concrete light poles on the elevated path, adorned with elegant L‑shaped steel light fixtures, which establish a strong and cohesive visual rhythm. Only upon closer inspection you notice the 2007 retaining walls peeking through the dense tropical vegetation. Removing these unattractive concrete barriers was never an option; they stand as a symbol of successful flood protection for the local population. The architectural team ingeniously built the elevated promenade atop the existing wall – an effective concealment from the street side while simultaneously inviting residents to reconnect with the Grijalva.  At the foot of the observatory, directly below the retaining wall, the earth‑toned concrete platforms of the Carlos A Madrazo Becerra Park stretch towards the river. Visitors can access the park via a ramp from the promenade on the western bank or by ferry from the opposite side. In the park, concrete furnishings invite visitors to linger among tropical vegetation set against tall natural stone walls. Importantly, it is a space that is durable and requires minimal maintenance – a survival formula for public parks in the Mexican context. Small traces on the concrete benches reveal that the park weathered its baptism of fire last year: the design accommodates the river’s natural dynamics, adapting to fluctuating water levels without compromising public safety. Beyond providing much‑needed shade, the extensive planting of native, low‑maintenance plants on both riverbanks has improved soil stability. Above the park, on a broad extension of the elevated pathway, stand three long, elegant buildings with large cantilevered roofs supported by hefty beams resting on distinctive double columns. The tall glass walls that enclose the interiors are set back, creating a visual flow between interior and exterior spaces. While the beams evoke timber construction, they – like the columns – are made of the same pigmented concrete used for the promenade paving. Despite their refined composition, these structures have remained largely unused since their completion over a year ago, neither serving their intended function as restaurants nor hosting alternative uses. Even the beautifully designed park sees only limited public engagement. The ambitious goal of SEDATU with the PMU projects to ‘counteract violence and strengthen the social fabric’ appears, for now, to have fallen short in this area. According to national statistics, Villahermosa ranks first in perceived insecurity among Mexican cities. This sense of insecurity is tangible on the promenade by the city centre, where buildings that look abandoned contribute to an atmosphere of neglect. The situation is markedly different on the opposite riverbank, in the Gaviotas neighbourhood. Construction of the 3.5km promenade on this side began in 2021 with three open pavilions housing several small kiosks, which quickly evolved into popular taco stands. The Plaza Solidaridad, revitalised by the architectural trio, draws people from the surrounding vibrant neighbourhood. Further south, the final section that was built is a large sports area and children’s playground, which were embraced by the local community even before their official inauguration in February 2024. Especially after sunset, when the air cools, the well‑lit Gaviotas riverfront comes to life. During daylight hours, however, air‑conditioned shopping centres remain the preferred gathering places for the residents of Villahermosa. Rocha describes the city’s new promenade as a ‘jazz composition’, a striking metaphor that speaks of rhythmic complexity and the freedom to improvise. With just a few designed elements and carefully selected colours, the architects have harmoniously layered the river’s urban spaces. The project is earning international recognition but, in Mexico, it faced sharp criticism and was overshadowed by accusations of nepotism. Castro is a friend of AMLO’s son, and the fact that the intervention took place in the home state of the then‑president, coupled with its substantial budget by local standards, drew considerable attention. According to residents, this undermined public acceptance. When asked about the negative press, Rocha speaks of the need to develop a ‘crisis muscle’; he says architects working on public projects in Mexico must ‘let go of perfectionism’ as much lies beyond their control.  During AMLO’s six‑year term, which ended in 2024, SEDATU implemented 1,300 PMU projects in 193 highly marginalised municipalities across the country. While many of these interventions undoubtedly improved people’s quality of life, the Villahermosa riverside project also reveals architecture’s limitations, exposing some of the programme’s weaknesses: architectural interventions often act as sticking plasters on an extensively damaged urban fabric. They are handed over from a national ministry with comprehensive expertise and funding to local governments lacking the means to sustain them. Although SEDATU conducted participatory consultations during the project’s implementation, this engagement was absent once the project was completed. Public acceptance and appropriation can take time; what this project does is send an invitation out. 2025-06-05 Reuben J Brown Share AR June 2025RoadsBuy Now
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  • AR June 2025: Roads

    Mauricio Rocha | TaAU | Alejandro Castro | OMA | Michel Desvigne | Robert Moses | El Equipo Mazzanti | ContraFuerte |  Batlleiroig | Christian Kerez
    Earlier this year, news broke that levels of fine particulate matter in Paris had dropped by an astounding 55 per cent since 2005. Through a combination of regulation and public policy, the city has vastly reduced the number of cars on its streets, introducing bike lanes and public green spaces in the place of around 50,000 parking spaces.
    This issue is dedicated to roads and the architectures that support them. Cities around the world are reckoning with 20th-century car-oriented urban planning, as epitomised by Robert Moses’s New York. Existing roads are increasingly repurposed for broader uses, prioritising pedestrians, cyclists and other forms of movement. São Paulo’s Minhocão has been gradually reclaimed by residents, and the restoration of a historical promenade in Reus is inclusive for all. Meanwhile, OMA’s new bridge in Bordeaux is designed to host public events – as well as six lanes of motorised traffic.
    Elsewhere, automobile infrastructure continues to expand; in Bahrain, four new car parks stand largely empty, and a roadside service station in Colombia is yet to be occupied. Roads promise prosperity and progress, often with expansionist ambitions; as Nadi Abusaada writes, ‘The road is both the myth and mechanism of the colonial frontier’. 
    Electric vehicles are now heralded as the future of transport, but as Nelo Magalhães writes in this issue’s keynote, ‘EVs do nothing to change the mass of roads or the issue of their maintenance’. The shift needed is more radical and wide‑reaching. 

    1522: Roads

    coverHighway #5, Los Angeles, California, USAis part of Edward Burtynsky: The Great Acceleration, an exhibition on view at the International Center of Photography in New York City until 28 September. In it, a motorway bulldozes its way through suburbia, sending out smaller branches that further subdivide it. Credit: © Edward Burtynsky, courtesy Flowers Gallery, London
    folioHome follows a family living in a house next to an uncompleted motorway, who reclaim it, temporarily, as an extension of their home. Credit: Album / Alamy
    keynote

    How much does your road weigh?
    Nelo Magalhãesbuilding
    Malecón de Villahermosa by Taller de Arquitectura Mauricio Rocha, TaAU and Alejandro Castro in Villahermosa, Mexico
    Laure Nashed
    building
    Simon Veil bridge by OMA and Michel Desvigne Paysagiste in Bordeaux, France
    John Bingham-Hall
    reputations

    Robert Moses
    Andy Battlebuilding
    Control and operations centre by El Equipo Mazzanti and ContraFuerte in Bolombolo, Colombia
    Felipe Walter
    essay
    Cape to Cairo
    Sara Salem
    essay
    A short history of the roadblock
    Jan-Werner Müller
    outrage

    The Amazonian road to COP30
    Martha Dillonrevisit
    Schlangenbader Straße estate in Berlin, Germany
    Sophie Lovell
    essay

    Living with the Big Worm
    Richard J Williamsbuilding
    Passeig de Boca de la Mina by Batlleiroig in Reus, Spain
    Blanca Pujals
    essay
    Taking Norway’s scenic routes
    Tomà Berlanda
    building
    Pearling Path car parks by Christian Kerez in Muharraq, Bahrain
    Oliver Wainwright
    typology
    Petrol station
    Tom Wilkinson
    essay
    The road is the frontier
    Nadi Abusaada
    #june #roads
    AR June 2025: Roads
    Mauricio Rocha | TaAU | Alejandro Castro | OMA | Michel Desvigne | Robert Moses | El Equipo Mazzanti | ContraFuerte |  Batlleiroig | Christian Kerez Earlier this year, news broke that levels of fine particulate matter in Paris had dropped by an astounding 55 per cent since 2005. Through a combination of regulation and public policy, the city has vastly reduced the number of cars on its streets, introducing bike lanes and public green spaces in the place of around 50,000 parking spaces. This issue is dedicated to roads and the architectures that support them. Cities around the world are reckoning with 20th-century car-oriented urban planning, as epitomised by Robert Moses’s New York. Existing roads are increasingly repurposed for broader uses, prioritising pedestrians, cyclists and other forms of movement. São Paulo’s Minhocão has been gradually reclaimed by residents, and the restoration of a historical promenade in Reus is inclusive for all. Meanwhile, OMA’s new bridge in Bordeaux is designed to host public events – as well as six lanes of motorised traffic. Elsewhere, automobile infrastructure continues to expand; in Bahrain, four new car parks stand largely empty, and a roadside service station in Colombia is yet to be occupied. Roads promise prosperity and progress, often with expansionist ambitions; as Nadi Abusaada writes, ‘The road is both the myth and mechanism of the colonial frontier’.  Electric vehicles are now heralded as the future of transport, but as Nelo Magalhães writes in this issue’s keynote, ‘EVs do nothing to change the mass of roads or the issue of their maintenance’. The shift needed is more radical and wide‑reaching.  1522: Roads coverHighway #5, Los Angeles, California, USAis part of Edward Burtynsky: The Great Acceleration, an exhibition on view at the International Center of Photography in New York City until 28 September. In it, a motorway bulldozes its way through suburbia, sending out smaller branches that further subdivide it. Credit: © Edward Burtynsky, courtesy Flowers Gallery, London folioHome follows a family living in a house next to an uncompleted motorway, who reclaim it, temporarily, as an extension of their home. Credit: Album / Alamy keynote How much does your road weigh? Nelo Magalhãesbuilding Malecón de Villahermosa by Taller de Arquitectura Mauricio Rocha, TaAU and Alejandro Castro in Villahermosa, Mexico Laure Nashed building Simon Veil bridge by OMA and Michel Desvigne Paysagiste in Bordeaux, France John Bingham-Hall reputations Robert Moses Andy Battlebuilding Control and operations centre by El Equipo Mazzanti and ContraFuerte in Bolombolo, Colombia Felipe Walter essay Cape to Cairo Sara Salem essay A short history of the roadblock Jan-Werner Müller outrage The Amazonian road to COP30 Martha Dillonrevisit Schlangenbader Straße estate in Berlin, Germany Sophie Lovell essay Living with the Big Worm Richard J Williamsbuilding Passeig de Boca de la Mina by Batlleiroig in Reus, Spain Blanca Pujals essay Taking Norway’s scenic routes Tomà Berlanda building Pearling Path car parks by Christian Kerez in Muharraq, Bahrain Oliver Wainwright typology Petrol station Tom Wilkinson essay The road is the frontier Nadi Abusaada #june #roads
    WWW.ARCHITECTURAL-REVIEW.COM
    AR June 2025: Roads
    Mauricio Rocha | TaAU | Alejandro Castro | OMA | Michel Desvigne | Robert Moses | El Equipo Mazzanti | ContraFuerte |  Batlleiroig | Christian Kerez Earlier this year, news broke that levels of fine particulate matter in Paris had dropped by an astounding 55 per cent since 2005. Through a combination of regulation and public policy, the city has vastly reduced the number of cars on its streets, introducing bike lanes and public green spaces in the place of around 50,000 parking spaces. This issue is dedicated to roads and the architectures that support them. Cities around the world are reckoning with 20th-century car-oriented urban planning, as epitomised by Robert Moses’s New York (p36). Existing roads are increasingly repurposed for broader uses, prioritising pedestrians, cyclists and other forms of movement. São Paulo’s Minhocão has been gradually reclaimed by residents, and the restoration of a historical promenade in Reus is inclusive for all. Meanwhile, OMA’s new bridge in Bordeaux is designed to host public events – as well as six lanes of motorised traffic. Elsewhere, automobile infrastructure continues to expand; in Bahrain, four new car parks stand largely empty, and a roadside service station in Colombia is yet to be occupied. Roads promise prosperity and progress, often with expansionist ambitions; as Nadi Abusaada writes, ‘The road is both the myth and mechanism of the colonial frontier’.  Electric vehicles are now heralded as the future of transport, but as Nelo Magalhães writes in this issue’s keynote, ‘EVs do nothing to change the mass of roads or the issue of their maintenance’. The shift needed is more radical and wide‑reaching.  1522: Roads cover (above)Highway #5, Los Angeles, California, USA (2009) is part of Edward Burtynsky: The Great Acceleration, an exhibition on view at the International Center of Photography in New York City until 28 September. In it, a motorway bulldozes its way through suburbia, sending out smaller branches that further subdivide it. Credit: © Edward Burtynsky, courtesy Flowers Gallery, London folio (lead image)Home follows a family living in a house next to an uncompleted motorway, who reclaim it, temporarily, as an extension of their home. Credit: Album / Alamy keynote How much does your road weigh? Nelo Magalhãesbuilding Malecón de Villahermosa by Taller de Arquitectura Mauricio Rocha, TaAU and Alejandro Castro in Villahermosa, Mexico Laure Nashed building Simon Veil bridge by OMA and Michel Desvigne Paysagiste in Bordeaux, France John Bingham-Hall reputations Robert Moses Andy Battlebuilding Control and operations centre by El Equipo Mazzanti and ContraFuerte in Bolombolo, Colombia Felipe Walter essay Cape to Cairo Sara Salem essay A short history of the roadblock Jan-Werner Müller outrage The Amazonian road to COP30 Martha Dillonrevisit Schlangenbader Straße estate in Berlin, Germany Sophie Lovell essay Living with the Big Worm Richard J Williamsbuilding Passeig de Boca de la Mina by Batlleiroig in Reus, Spain Blanca Pujals essay Taking Norway’s scenic routes Tomà Berlanda building Pearling Path car parks by Christian Kerez in Muharraq, Bahrain Oliver Wainwright typology Petrol station Tom Wilkinson essay The road is the frontier Nadi Abusaada
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  • 17 dazzling images from 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year awards

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    Earth and space mingle in stunning ways for the 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year contest. From the “geological masterpiece” of Coyote Buttes, Utah to the sandstone terrain of desolate Ennedi, Chad to a lava-spewing volcano in Guatemala, this year’s entries dazzle from all corners of the globe. We even get a view of the Milky Way from off-planet with a photograph from NASA astronaut Don Pettit taken aboard the International Space Station.
    “The Wave”Coyote Buttes, UT, USAOne of my greatest passions is visiting stunning natural wonders and paying my personal tribute to them through night photography. This image was taken at Coyote Buttes, a geological masterpiece located in Arizona, where special access permits are required to protect it for future generations.Despite the intense cold during those days, it was incredibly exciting to visit the great sandstone wave for the first time and enjoy its spectacular shapes and colors.To capture this 360° panorama, I planned for the Milky Way and focused on creating a balanced photographic composition. It’s hard to put into words the beauty of this place, but I hope my photograph manages to convey it.Credit: Luis Cajete / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    The Milky Way contains an estimated 200-400 billion stars, but we can only see a fraction of the celestial bodies with our naked eyes. Photography opens up the skies to the staggering light show floating around us.“Echiwile Arch” Ennedi, ChadWhen one first Googles information about visiting Chad, the results aren’t very encouraging from a safety perspective. Nevertheless, the intrepid astrophotographer in me decided to take the chance and visit this landlocked country, specifically the Ennedi Massif in the north.Sparsely populated and completely devoid of light pollution, the three-day drive from the capital, N’Djamena, was well worth the troubles and risks involved. The region is filled with numerous rock formations, shapes, and arches, offering an abundance of options for foreground elements to frame the dramatic night skies. Seen here is a small arch in the shape of a hoof in the Ennedi region.Credit: Vikas Chander / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Fortress of Light”Jujuy, ArgentinaSince I started shooting the night sky, I’ve always sought out landscapes that feel like they belong to another planet — remote, untouched, and far from light pollution. That’s exactly what I found in “The Cathedral,” a surreal rock formation in Jujuy, Argentina.Photographing at over 4,000 meterspresented its challenges, but when I arrived and saw the rock formations, I was completely blown away. The landscape felt like something from a fantasy world, and the towering cliffs instantly reminded me of a giant stone fortress sculpted by nature.As twilight gave way to full darkness, the core of the Milky Way appeared high overhead, shining with incredible clarity. I patiently waited as the galactic center slowly descended toward the horizon, perfectly aligning above the cliffs.While capturing the panorama, the camera picked up bands of orange and green airglow, adding a unique glow to the horizon.This image captures everything I love about photographing the Milky Way — the silence of remote places, the peace of standing under a pristine sky, and the deep connection I feel to the moment, fully present and grateful to witness it.Credit: Mauricio Salazar / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “The Night Guardians” Easter Island, ChileEaster Island had been on my bucket list for a long time, and it once seemed almost impossible to reach. On our first night there, the weather forecast looked promising, so we decided to go ahead with the tour our group had booked 4–5 months earlier. However, Rapa Nui sits in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, where the weather is notoriously unpredictable. When we woke up at 3 a.m. in our hotel, the sky was completely covered in clouds. Still, we decided to take the risk, knowing the forecast for the next few nights was even worse.An hour later, we were frantically photographing the statues at Rano Raraku—the quarry where nearly all of the island’s 900 statues were carved—when the sky suddenly began to clear. By 5 a.m., it was completely clear, and we had less than two hours to capture all the shots we wanted. We felt incredibly lucky to be in the right place at the right time.Credit: Rositsa Dimitrova / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Blossom”Hehuan Mountain Dark Sky Park, TaiwanAfter three years of waiting, the Yushan alpine rhododendrons are finally in bloom once again on Taiwan’s 3,000-meter-high Hehuan Mountain. On this special night, distant clouds helped block city light pollution, revealing an exceptionally clear view of the Milky Way. A solar flare from active region AR3664 reached Earth that evening, intensifying the airglow and adding an otherworldly touch to the sky.Together, these rare natural events created a breathtaking scene—vivid blooms glowing softly beneath a star-filled sky.Credit: Ethan Su / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Spines and Starlight”Kanaan, NamibiaOn our second Namibia Photography Tour, we began our journey once again at one of our favorite spots in Kanaan. Last year was an incredible experience, but this time, we decided to explore more of this vast land.During a scouting trip, I stumbled upon the perfect composition—two quiver trees standing tall with a large cactus in the foreground, all beautifully aligned with the Milky Way. I had always wanted to capture the Milky Way alongside a big cactus, so in that moment, it felt like a special gift.Getting everything in focus was a bit challenging, as I had to get extremely close to the cactus without getting poked. To achieve perfect sharpness, I used focus stacking. Additionally, I shot with an astro-modified camera and a GNB Nebula filter to enhance the details of the night sky.Credit: Burak Esenbey / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Galaxy of the Stone Array” Moeraki Boulders, New ZealandThe Milky Way hangs over the sea. The night sky of the Southern Hemisphere condenses the poetry of Li Bai, a poet from China’s Tang Dynasty, into eternity. On a clear night, the Milky Way pours down over the sea like a waterfall from the sky, intertwining with the atmospheric glow on the water’s surface.Credit: Alvin Wu / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “One in a Billion ”ISSI float in the Cupola, looking out the seven windows composing this faceted transparent jewel. While my mind is submerged in contemplation, my eyes gorge on the dim reflections from a nighttime Earth. There are over eight billion people that call this planet home. There are seven of us that can say the same for Space Station. What a privilege it is to be here. I used an orbital star tracker to take out the star streak motion from orbit.Credit: Don Pettit / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Winter Fairy Tale”Dobratsch Nature Park, AustriaUndoubtedly my wildest location this winter: Austria’s Dobratsch mountain! If I had to describe it in two words, it would be a “Winter Fairytale”!Despite a 5 a.m. work shift, I drove to Austria by 1 p.m., worried about my fitness and lack of sleep. After a 2-hour hike through the snow with a 22kg backpack and sled, the stunning views kept me energized.Arriving at the cabin, I was greeted by untouched snow, completely free of footprints. I spent the evening exploring compositions, and this is my favorite: a panorama of the winter Milky Way with reddish nebulae, stretching above Dobratsch Mountain.I captured the Zodiacal light and even the Gegenschein glow! The sky was magnificent, with Jupiter and Mars shining brightly. In the foreground is the cabin, where I spent 3 freezing hours, waiting for the perfect shot of the Milky Way’s core. It turned out exactly as I envisioned—a true winter fairytale.Credit: Uroš Fink / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Valle de los Cactus” San Pedro de Atacama, ChileA panoramic shot of the Milky Way in a remote area of the Atacama Cactus Valley, known for its large concentration of cactus plants. I love this place with its countless possibilities. The panorama was taken just as the galactic center began to rise, with the spectacular Gum Nebula visible on the right.It was an especially bright night with a breathtaking sky. The valley isn’t easy to navigate, but it’s always worth trying to find new compositions in such stunning locations beneath the night sky.Credit: Pablo Ruiz / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Cosmic Fire”Volcán Acatenango, GuatemalaOn the early morning of June 2, 2024, I summited Acatenango Volcano for the first time, hoping to witness the fiery beauty of the neighboring Volcan de Fuego against the Milky Way’s backdrop. That night, the volcano was incredibly active—each thunderous explosion reverberated in my chest, while glowing lava illuminated the dark slopes. Above, the Milky Way stretched diagonally across the sky, a mesmerizing band of stars contrasting with the chaos below. As the volcano erupted, the ash plume rose vertically, forming an acute angle of about 45 degrees with the galaxy’s diagonal path, creating a stunning visual contrast between Earth’s fury and the cosmos’ serenity.Capturing this required a fast, wide-angle lens, an ISO of 3200, and a 10-second exposure to balance the volcanic glow with the starlight. The challenge was timing the shot during a new moon and aligning the right moment for the Milky Way to cross the frame next to the volcano. I used Lightroom as the editor. This image is special for its storytelling—the raw power of Volcan de Fuego meeting the tranquil expanse of the galaxy.Credit: Sergio Montúfar / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Lake RT5” Zanskar, HimalayasLake RT5 is a pristine alpine lake nestled at 5,700 meters above sea level. My passion has always been to capture the unseen Himalayas in their rawest form. This journey led us through rugged mountains and glaciers, where we discovered several unknown alpine lakes and named them along the way.We endured multiple nights in extremely cold, unpredictable conditions. Due to the ever-changing weather and limited time, I used a blue hour blend to achieve a cleaner foreground. Since my campsite was right beside the lake, I was able to capture the tracked sky shot from the exact same position later that night.I was in awe of the incredible airglow illuminating the Himalayan skies. The raw image had even more intense colors, but I toned them down to stay true to reality. This was undoubtedly one of the most unforgettable nights I’ve ever spent in the heart of the Himalayas.Credit: Tanay Das / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “A Stellar View From The Cave” Saint Raphael, FranceFramed by the rugged mouth of a coastal cave, this image captures the heart of the Milky Way rising over the Mediterranean Sea. Taken during the peak of the Galactic Core season last May, it blends the natural beauty of the foreground with the awe-inspiring vastness of the cosmos. A winding road, illuminated by passing cars, creates a dynamic trail of light that guides the eye toward the stars above.This photo is a reminder that magic often hides in the most unexpected places. All it takes is a little patience, planning, and passion.Credit: Anthony Lopez / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Boot Arch Perseids” Alabama Hills, CA, USAThe Perseid Meteor Shower occurs every August, raining down hundreds of meteors over a few nights. In 2024, I had planned to photograph it from the Canadian Rockies, but wildfires forced me to change my plans at the last minute. After checking wildfire maps, I found a safe haven in the Eastern Sierra Nevada.After three full nights of capturing meteors, I created this image. Sitting on the rock is my friend Arne, who often joins me on these adventures, gazing up at the magnificent core of our galaxy. Each meteor is painstakingly aligned to its true location in the night sky. The final depiction shows all the meteors I captured, combined into one frame—as if the Earth hadn’t been rotating and all the meteors had fallen at once.Credit: Mike Abramyan / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Starlit Ocean: A Comet, the setting Venus, the Milky Way, and McWay Falls” – California, USACapturing this image was a race against time, light, and distance. With Comet Tsuchinshan–ATLASmaking its approach, I knew I had a rare opportunity to see it with the naked eye before it faded into the cosmos. I embarked on a five-hour round trip to McWay Falls in Big Sur, one of the few Bortle 2 locations accessible along California’s coast. My window was narrow—just six precious minutes of true darkness before the Moon rose and washed out the night sky. But those six minutes were unforgettable.In that brief span, the Milky Way arched high above the Pacific, Venus shimmered as it set over the ocean, and the comet streaked quietly across the sky—a celestial visitor gracing this iconic coastal cove. The soft cascade of McWay Falls and the stillness of the starlit ocean created a surreal harmony between Earth and sky. It was one of the most vivid and humbling naked-eye comet sightings I’ve ever experienced—an alignment of cosmic elements that felt both fleeting and eternal.Credit: Xingyang Cai / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    “Diamond Beach Emerald Sky”Great Ocean Road, AustraliaWith a clear night forecast and the Milky Way core returning for 2025, I set out to explore the Great Ocean Road. After a few setbacks—such as a failed composition and getting the car stuck on a sandy track—I almost gave up. However, I pushed on and found a great spot above the beach to capture the scene.The night was full of color, with Comet C/2024 G3 Atlas and a pink aurora in the early hours, followed by the Milky Way rising amid intense green airglow near dawn. Despite the challenges, the reward of this stunning image and the memory of the view made it all worthwhile.Credit: Brent Martin / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
    #dazzling #images #milky #way #photographer
    17 dazzling images from 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year awards
    Get the Popular Science daily newsletter💡 Breakthroughs, discoveries, and DIY tips sent every weekday. Earth and space mingle in stunning ways for the 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year contest. From the “geological masterpiece” of Coyote Buttes, Utah to the sandstone terrain of desolate Ennedi, Chad to a lava-spewing volcano in Guatemala, this year’s entries dazzle from all corners of the globe. We even get a view of the Milky Way from off-planet with a photograph from NASA astronaut Don Pettit taken aboard the International Space Station. “The Wave”Coyote Buttes, UT, USAOne of my greatest passions is visiting stunning natural wonders and paying my personal tribute to them through night photography. This image was taken at Coyote Buttes, a geological masterpiece located in Arizona, where special access permits are required to protect it for future generations.Despite the intense cold during those days, it was incredibly exciting to visit the great sandstone wave for the first time and enjoy its spectacular shapes and colors.To capture this 360° panorama, I planned for the Milky Way and focused on creating a balanced photographic composition. It’s hard to put into words the beauty of this place, but I hope my photograph manages to convey it.Credit: Luis Cajete / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill The Milky Way contains an estimated 200-400 billion stars, but we can only see a fraction of the celestial bodies with our naked eyes. Photography opens up the skies to the staggering light show floating around us.“Echiwile Arch” Ennedi, ChadWhen one first Googles information about visiting Chad, the results aren’t very encouraging from a safety perspective. Nevertheless, the intrepid astrophotographer in me decided to take the chance and visit this landlocked country, specifically the Ennedi Massif in the north.Sparsely populated and completely devoid of light pollution, the three-day drive from the capital, N’Djamena, was well worth the troubles and risks involved. The region is filled with numerous rock formations, shapes, and arches, offering an abundance of options for foreground elements to frame the dramatic night skies. Seen here is a small arch in the shape of a hoof in the Ennedi region.Credit: Vikas Chander / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Fortress of Light”Jujuy, ArgentinaSince I started shooting the night sky, I’ve always sought out landscapes that feel like they belong to another planet — remote, untouched, and far from light pollution. That’s exactly what I found in “The Cathedral,” a surreal rock formation in Jujuy, Argentina.Photographing at over 4,000 meterspresented its challenges, but when I arrived and saw the rock formations, I was completely blown away. The landscape felt like something from a fantasy world, and the towering cliffs instantly reminded me of a giant stone fortress sculpted by nature.As twilight gave way to full darkness, the core of the Milky Way appeared high overhead, shining with incredible clarity. I patiently waited as the galactic center slowly descended toward the horizon, perfectly aligning above the cliffs.While capturing the panorama, the camera picked up bands of orange and green airglow, adding a unique glow to the horizon.This image captures everything I love about photographing the Milky Way — the silence of remote places, the peace of standing under a pristine sky, and the deep connection I feel to the moment, fully present and grateful to witness it.Credit: Mauricio Salazar / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “The Night Guardians” Easter Island, ChileEaster Island had been on my bucket list for a long time, and it once seemed almost impossible to reach. On our first night there, the weather forecast looked promising, so we decided to go ahead with the tour our group had booked 4–5 months earlier. However, Rapa Nui sits in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, where the weather is notoriously unpredictable. When we woke up at 3 a.m. in our hotel, the sky was completely covered in clouds. Still, we decided to take the risk, knowing the forecast for the next few nights was even worse.An hour later, we were frantically photographing the statues at Rano Raraku—the quarry where nearly all of the island’s 900 statues were carved—when the sky suddenly began to clear. By 5 a.m., it was completely clear, and we had less than two hours to capture all the shots we wanted. We felt incredibly lucky to be in the right place at the right time.Credit: Rositsa Dimitrova / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Blossom”Hehuan Mountain Dark Sky Park, TaiwanAfter three years of waiting, the Yushan alpine rhododendrons are finally in bloom once again on Taiwan’s 3,000-meter-high Hehuan Mountain. On this special night, distant clouds helped block city light pollution, revealing an exceptionally clear view of the Milky Way. A solar flare from active region AR3664 reached Earth that evening, intensifying the airglow and adding an otherworldly touch to the sky.Together, these rare natural events created a breathtaking scene—vivid blooms glowing softly beneath a star-filled sky.Credit: Ethan Su / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Spines and Starlight”Kanaan, NamibiaOn our second Namibia Photography Tour, we began our journey once again at one of our favorite spots in Kanaan. Last year was an incredible experience, but this time, we decided to explore more of this vast land.During a scouting trip, I stumbled upon the perfect composition—two quiver trees standing tall with a large cactus in the foreground, all beautifully aligned with the Milky Way. I had always wanted to capture the Milky Way alongside a big cactus, so in that moment, it felt like a special gift.Getting everything in focus was a bit challenging, as I had to get extremely close to the cactus without getting poked. To achieve perfect sharpness, I used focus stacking. Additionally, I shot with an astro-modified camera and a GNB Nebula filter to enhance the details of the night sky.Credit: Burak Esenbey / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Galaxy of the Stone Array” Moeraki Boulders, New ZealandThe Milky Way hangs over the sea. The night sky of the Southern Hemisphere condenses the poetry of Li Bai, a poet from China’s Tang Dynasty, into eternity. On a clear night, the Milky Way pours down over the sea like a waterfall from the sky, intertwining with the atmospheric glow on the water’s surface.Credit: Alvin Wu / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “One in a Billion ”ISSI float in the Cupola, looking out the seven windows composing this faceted transparent jewel. While my mind is submerged in contemplation, my eyes gorge on the dim reflections from a nighttime Earth. There are over eight billion people that call this planet home. There are seven of us that can say the same for Space Station. What a privilege it is to be here. I used an orbital star tracker to take out the star streak motion from orbit.Credit: Don Pettit / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Winter Fairy Tale”Dobratsch Nature Park, AustriaUndoubtedly my wildest location this winter: Austria’s Dobratsch mountain! If I had to describe it in two words, it would be a “Winter Fairytale”!Despite a 5 a.m. work shift, I drove to Austria by 1 p.m., worried about my fitness and lack of sleep. After a 2-hour hike through the snow with a 22kg backpack and sled, the stunning views kept me energized.Arriving at the cabin, I was greeted by untouched snow, completely free of footprints. I spent the evening exploring compositions, and this is my favorite: a panorama of the winter Milky Way with reddish nebulae, stretching above Dobratsch Mountain.I captured the Zodiacal light and even the Gegenschein glow! The sky was magnificent, with Jupiter and Mars shining brightly. In the foreground is the cabin, where I spent 3 freezing hours, waiting for the perfect shot of the Milky Way’s core. It turned out exactly as I envisioned—a true winter fairytale.Credit: Uroš Fink / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Valle de los Cactus” San Pedro de Atacama, ChileA panoramic shot of the Milky Way in a remote area of the Atacama Cactus Valley, known for its large concentration of cactus plants. I love this place with its countless possibilities. The panorama was taken just as the galactic center began to rise, with the spectacular Gum Nebula visible on the right.It was an especially bright night with a breathtaking sky. The valley isn’t easy to navigate, but it’s always worth trying to find new compositions in such stunning locations beneath the night sky.Credit: Pablo Ruiz / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Cosmic Fire”Volcán Acatenango, GuatemalaOn the early morning of June 2, 2024, I summited Acatenango Volcano for the first time, hoping to witness the fiery beauty of the neighboring Volcan de Fuego against the Milky Way’s backdrop. That night, the volcano was incredibly active—each thunderous explosion reverberated in my chest, while glowing lava illuminated the dark slopes. Above, the Milky Way stretched diagonally across the sky, a mesmerizing band of stars contrasting with the chaos below. As the volcano erupted, the ash plume rose vertically, forming an acute angle of about 45 degrees with the galaxy’s diagonal path, creating a stunning visual contrast between Earth’s fury and the cosmos’ serenity.Capturing this required a fast, wide-angle lens, an ISO of 3200, and a 10-second exposure to balance the volcanic glow with the starlight. The challenge was timing the shot during a new moon and aligning the right moment for the Milky Way to cross the frame next to the volcano. I used Lightroom as the editor. This image is special for its storytelling—the raw power of Volcan de Fuego meeting the tranquil expanse of the galaxy.Credit: Sergio Montúfar / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Lake RT5” Zanskar, HimalayasLake RT5 is a pristine alpine lake nestled at 5,700 meters above sea level. My passion has always been to capture the unseen Himalayas in their rawest form. This journey led us through rugged mountains and glaciers, where we discovered several unknown alpine lakes and named them along the way.We endured multiple nights in extremely cold, unpredictable conditions. Due to the ever-changing weather and limited time, I used a blue hour blend to achieve a cleaner foreground. Since my campsite was right beside the lake, I was able to capture the tracked sky shot from the exact same position later that night.I was in awe of the incredible airglow illuminating the Himalayan skies. The raw image had even more intense colors, but I toned them down to stay true to reality. This was undoubtedly one of the most unforgettable nights I’ve ever spent in the heart of the Himalayas.Credit: Tanay Das / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “A Stellar View From The Cave” Saint Raphael, FranceFramed by the rugged mouth of a coastal cave, this image captures the heart of the Milky Way rising over the Mediterranean Sea. Taken during the peak of the Galactic Core season last May, it blends the natural beauty of the foreground with the awe-inspiring vastness of the cosmos. A winding road, illuminated by passing cars, creates a dynamic trail of light that guides the eye toward the stars above.This photo is a reminder that magic often hides in the most unexpected places. All it takes is a little patience, planning, and passion.Credit: Anthony Lopez / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Boot Arch Perseids” Alabama Hills, CA, USAThe Perseid Meteor Shower occurs every August, raining down hundreds of meteors over a few nights. In 2024, I had planned to photograph it from the Canadian Rockies, but wildfires forced me to change my plans at the last minute. After checking wildfire maps, I found a safe haven in the Eastern Sierra Nevada.After three full nights of capturing meteors, I created this image. Sitting on the rock is my friend Arne, who often joins me on these adventures, gazing up at the magnificent core of our galaxy. Each meteor is painstakingly aligned to its true location in the night sky. The final depiction shows all the meteors I captured, combined into one frame—as if the Earth hadn’t been rotating and all the meteors had fallen at once.Credit: Mike Abramyan / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Starlit Ocean: A Comet, the setting Venus, the Milky Way, and McWay Falls” – California, USACapturing this image was a race against time, light, and distance. With Comet Tsuchinshan–ATLASmaking its approach, I knew I had a rare opportunity to see it with the naked eye before it faded into the cosmos. I embarked on a five-hour round trip to McWay Falls in Big Sur, one of the few Bortle 2 locations accessible along California’s coast. My window was narrow—just six precious minutes of true darkness before the Moon rose and washed out the night sky. But those six minutes were unforgettable.In that brief span, the Milky Way arched high above the Pacific, Venus shimmered as it set over the ocean, and the comet streaked quietly across the sky—a celestial visitor gracing this iconic coastal cove. The soft cascade of McWay Falls and the stillness of the starlit ocean created a surreal harmony between Earth and sky. It was one of the most vivid and humbling naked-eye comet sightings I’ve ever experienced—an alignment of cosmic elements that felt both fleeting and eternal.Credit: Xingyang Cai / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Diamond Beach Emerald Sky”Great Ocean Road, AustraliaWith a clear night forecast and the Milky Way core returning for 2025, I set out to explore the Great Ocean Road. After a few setbacks—such as a failed composition and getting the car stuck on a sandy track—I almost gave up. However, I pushed on and found a great spot above the beach to capture the scene.The night was full of color, with Comet C/2024 G3 Atlas and a pink aurora in the early hours, followed by the Milky Way rising amid intense green airglow near dawn. Despite the challenges, the reward of this stunning image and the memory of the view made it all worthwhile.Credit: Brent Martin / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill #dazzling #images #milky #way #photographer
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    17 dazzling images from 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year awards
    Get the Popular Science daily newsletter💡 Breakthroughs, discoveries, and DIY tips sent every weekday. Earth and space mingle in stunning ways for the 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year contest. From the “geological masterpiece” of Coyote Buttes, Utah to the sandstone terrain of desolate Ennedi, Chad to a lava-spewing volcano in Guatemala, this year’s entries dazzle from all corners of the globe. We even get a view of the Milky Way from off-planet with a photograph from NASA astronaut Don Pettit taken aboard the International Space Station. “The Wave”Coyote Buttes, UT, USAOne of my greatest passions is visiting stunning natural wonders and paying my personal tribute to them through night photography. This image was taken at Coyote Buttes, a geological masterpiece located in Arizona, where special access permits are required to protect it for future generations.Despite the intense cold during those days, it was incredibly exciting to visit the great sandstone wave for the first time and enjoy its spectacular shapes and colors.To capture this 360° panorama, I planned for the Milky Way and focused on creating a balanced photographic composition. It’s hard to put into words the beauty of this place, but I hope my photograph manages to convey it.Credit: Luis Cajete / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill The Milky Way contains an estimated 200-400 billion stars, but we can only see a fraction of the celestial bodies with our naked eyes. Photography opens up the skies to the staggering light show floating around us. (Click to enlarge images.) “Echiwile Arch” Ennedi, ChadWhen one first Googles information about visiting Chad, the results aren’t very encouraging from a safety perspective. Nevertheless, the intrepid astrophotographer in me decided to take the chance and visit this landlocked country, specifically the Ennedi Massif in the north.Sparsely populated and completely devoid of light pollution, the three-day drive from the capital, N’Djamena, was well worth the troubles and risks involved. The region is filled with numerous rock formations, shapes, and arches, offering an abundance of options for foreground elements to frame the dramatic night skies. Seen here is a small arch in the shape of a hoof in the Ennedi region.Credit: Vikas Chander / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Fortress of Light”Jujuy, ArgentinaSince I started shooting the night sky, I’ve always sought out landscapes that feel like they belong to another planet — remote, untouched, and far from light pollution. That’s exactly what I found in “The Cathedral,” a surreal rock formation in Jujuy, Argentina.Photographing at over 4,000 meters (13,000 feet) presented its challenges, but when I arrived and saw the rock formations, I was completely blown away. The landscape felt like something from a fantasy world, and the towering cliffs instantly reminded me of a giant stone fortress sculpted by nature.As twilight gave way to full darkness, the core of the Milky Way appeared high overhead, shining with incredible clarity. I patiently waited as the galactic center slowly descended toward the horizon, perfectly aligning above the cliffs.While capturing the panorama, the camera picked up bands of orange and green airglow, adding a unique glow to the horizon.This image captures everything I love about photographing the Milky Way — the silence of remote places, the peace of standing under a pristine sky, and the deep connection I feel to the moment, fully present and grateful to witness it.Credit: Mauricio Salazar / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “The Night Guardians” Easter Island, ChileEaster Island had been on my bucket list for a long time, and it once seemed almost impossible to reach. On our first night there, the weather forecast looked promising, so we decided to go ahead with the tour our group had booked 4–5 months earlier. However, Rapa Nui sits in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, where the weather is notoriously unpredictable. When we woke up at 3 a.m. in our hotel, the sky was completely covered in clouds. Still, we decided to take the risk, knowing the forecast for the next few nights was even worse.An hour later, we were frantically photographing the statues at Rano Raraku—the quarry where nearly all of the island’s 900 statues were carved—when the sky suddenly began to clear. By 5 a.m., it was completely clear, and we had less than two hours to capture all the shots we wanted. We felt incredibly lucky to be in the right place at the right time.Credit: Rositsa Dimitrova / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Blossom”Hehuan Mountain Dark Sky Park, TaiwanAfter three years of waiting, the Yushan alpine rhododendrons are finally in bloom once again on Taiwan’s 3,000-meter-high Hehuan Mountain. On this special night, distant clouds helped block city light pollution, revealing an exceptionally clear view of the Milky Way. A solar flare from active region AR3664 reached Earth that evening, intensifying the airglow and adding an otherworldly touch to the sky.Together, these rare natural events created a breathtaking scene—vivid blooms glowing softly beneath a star-filled sky.Credit: Ethan Su / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Spines and Starlight”Kanaan, NamibiaOn our second Namibia Photography Tour, we began our journey once again at one of our favorite spots in Kanaan. Last year was an incredible experience, but this time, we decided to explore more of this vast land.During a scouting trip, I stumbled upon the perfect composition—two quiver trees standing tall with a large cactus in the foreground, all beautifully aligned with the Milky Way. I had always wanted to capture the Milky Way alongside a big cactus, so in that moment, it felt like a special gift.Getting everything in focus was a bit challenging, as I had to get extremely close to the cactus without getting poked. To achieve perfect sharpness, I used focus stacking. Additionally, I shot with an astro-modified camera and a GNB Nebula filter to enhance the details of the night sky.Credit: Burak Esenbey / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Galaxy of the Stone Array” Moeraki Boulders, New ZealandThe Milky Way hangs over the sea. The night sky of the Southern Hemisphere condenses the poetry of Li Bai, a poet from China’s Tang Dynasty, into eternity. On a clear night, the Milky Way pours down over the sea like a waterfall from the sky, intertwining with the atmospheric glow on the water’s surface.Credit: Alvin Wu / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “One in a Billion ”ISS (International Space Station)I float in the Cupola, looking out the seven windows composing this faceted transparent jewel. While my mind is submerged in contemplation, my eyes gorge on the dim reflections from a nighttime Earth. There are over eight billion people that call this planet home. There are seven of us that can say the same for Space Station. What a privilege it is to be here. I used an orbital star tracker to take out the star streak motion from orbit.Credit: Don Pettit / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Winter Fairy Tale”Dobratsch Nature Park, AustriaUndoubtedly my wildest location this winter: Austria’s Dobratsch mountain! If I had to describe it in two words, it would be a “Winter Fairytale”!Despite a 5 a.m. work shift, I drove to Austria by 1 p.m., worried about my fitness and lack of sleep. After a 2-hour hike through the snow with a 22kg backpack and sled, the stunning views kept me energized.Arriving at the cabin (where I had planned my winter panorama two years ago), I was greeted by untouched snow, completely free of footprints. I spent the evening exploring compositions, and this is my favorite: a panorama of the winter Milky Way with reddish nebulae, stretching above Dobratsch Mountain.I captured the Zodiacal light and even the Gegenschein glow! The sky was magnificent, with Jupiter and Mars shining brightly. In the foreground is the cabin, where I spent 3 freezing hours (-12°C), waiting for the perfect shot of the Milky Way’s core. It turned out exactly as I envisioned—a true winter fairytale.Credit: Uroš Fink / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Valle de los Cactus” San Pedro de Atacama, ChileA panoramic shot of the Milky Way in a remote area of the Atacama Cactus Valley, known for its large concentration of cactus plants. I love this place with its countless possibilities. The panorama was taken just as the galactic center began to rise, with the spectacular Gum Nebula visible on the right.It was an especially bright night with a breathtaking sky. The valley isn’t easy to navigate, but it’s always worth trying to find new compositions in such stunning locations beneath the night sky.Credit: Pablo Ruiz / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Cosmic Fire”Volcán Acatenango, GuatemalaOn the early morning of June 2, 2024, I summited Acatenango Volcano for the first time, hoping to witness the fiery beauty of the neighboring Volcan de Fuego against the Milky Way’s backdrop. That night, the volcano was incredibly active—each thunderous explosion reverberated in my chest, while glowing lava illuminated the dark slopes. Above, the Milky Way stretched diagonally across the sky, a mesmerizing band of stars contrasting with the chaos below. As the volcano erupted, the ash plume rose vertically, forming an acute angle of about 45 degrees with the galaxy’s diagonal path, creating a stunning visual contrast between Earth’s fury and the cosmos’ serenity.Capturing this required a fast, wide-angle lens (f/2.8), an ISO of 3200, and a 10-second exposure to balance the volcanic glow with the starlight. The challenge was timing the shot during a new moon and aligning the right moment for the Milky Way to cross the frame next to the volcano. I used Lightroom as the editor. This image is special for its storytelling—the raw power of Volcan de Fuego meeting the tranquil expanse of the galaxy.Credit: Sergio Montúfar / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Lake RT5” Zanskar, HimalayasLake RT5 is a pristine alpine lake nestled at 5,700 meters above sea level. My passion has always been to capture the unseen Himalayas in their rawest form. This journey led us through rugged mountains and glaciers, where we discovered several unknown alpine lakes and named them along the way.We endured multiple nights in extremely cold, unpredictable conditions. Due to the ever-changing weather and limited time, I used a blue hour blend to achieve a cleaner foreground. Since my campsite was right beside the lake, I was able to capture the tracked sky shot from the exact same position later that night.I was in awe of the incredible airglow illuminating the Himalayan skies. The raw image had even more intense colors, but I toned them down to stay true to reality. This was undoubtedly one of the most unforgettable nights I’ve ever spent in the heart of the Himalayas.Credit: Tanay Das / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “A Stellar View From The Cave” Saint Raphael, FranceFramed by the rugged mouth of a coastal cave, this image captures the heart of the Milky Way rising over the Mediterranean Sea. Taken during the peak of the Galactic Core season last May, it blends the natural beauty of the foreground with the awe-inspiring vastness of the cosmos. A winding road, illuminated by passing cars, creates a dynamic trail of light that guides the eye toward the stars above.This photo is a reminder that magic often hides in the most unexpected places. All it takes is a little patience, planning, and passion.Credit: Anthony Lopez / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Boot Arch Perseids” Alabama Hills, CA, USAThe Perseid Meteor Shower occurs every August, raining down hundreds of meteors over a few nights. In 2024, I had planned to photograph it from the Canadian Rockies, but wildfires forced me to change my plans at the last minute. After checking wildfire maps, I found a safe haven in the Eastern Sierra Nevada.After three full nights of capturing meteors, I created this image. Sitting on the rock is my friend Arne, who often joins me on these adventures, gazing up at the magnificent core of our galaxy. Each meteor is painstakingly aligned to its true location in the night sky. The final depiction shows all the meteors I captured, combined into one frame—as if the Earth hadn’t been rotating and all the meteors had fallen at once.Credit: Mike Abramyan / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Starlit Ocean: A Comet, the setting Venus, the Milky Way, and McWay Falls” – California, USACapturing this image was a race against time, light, and distance. With Comet Tsuchinshan–ATLAS (C/2023 A3) making its approach, I knew I had a rare opportunity to see it with the naked eye before it faded into the cosmos. I embarked on a five-hour round trip to McWay Falls in Big Sur, one of the few Bortle 2 locations accessible along California’s coast. My window was narrow—just six precious minutes of true darkness before the Moon rose and washed out the night sky. But those six minutes were unforgettable.In that brief span, the Milky Way arched high above the Pacific, Venus shimmered as it set over the ocean, and the comet streaked quietly across the sky—a celestial visitor gracing this iconic coastal cove. The soft cascade of McWay Falls and the stillness of the starlit ocean created a surreal harmony between Earth and sky. It was one of the most vivid and humbling naked-eye comet sightings I’ve ever experienced—an alignment of cosmic elements that felt both fleeting and eternal.Credit: Xingyang Cai / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill “Diamond Beach Emerald Sky”Great Ocean Road, AustraliaWith a clear night forecast and the Milky Way core returning for 2025, I set out to explore the Great Ocean Road. After a few setbacks—such as a failed composition and getting the car stuck on a sandy track—I almost gave up. However, I pushed on and found a great spot above the beach to capture the scene.The night was full of color, with Comet C/2024 G3 Atlas and a pink aurora in the early hours, followed by the Milky Way rising amid intense green airglow near dawn. Despite the challenges, the reward of this stunning image and the memory of the view made it all worthwhile.Credit: Brent Martin / 2025 Milky Way Photographer of the Year Daniel Zafra Portill
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  • Neil Druckmann confirms the Fireflies could have made a viable cure in interview (+ other insights on the show, games, and future)

    Antoo
    Member

    May 1, 2019

    4,507

    Full on spoilers for TLOU1, TLOU2, and both seasons of the show ahead

    I saw this clip on the TLOU subreddit making the rounds. Neil goes into the viability of the cure, and he says this:

    "Could the Fireflies make a cure? Our intent was that, yes, they could. Now, is our science a little shaky that now people are questioning it? Yeah, it was a little shaky and now people are questioning that. I can't say anything. All I can say is that our intent is that they would have made a cure. That makes it a more interesting philosophical question for what Joel does."

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    /

    I can't post the interview due to the interviewer, however, if you are a fan of TLOU, I would suggest maybe looking for articles/posts covering it or finding the interview yourself. Neil goes into A LOT. I'll bullet point some highlights.

    Show highlights:
    - Neil says Ellie and Dina's relationship was intentionally static in the game. The same approach wouldn't work for the show because shows need movement.
    - The series needs constant conflict/progression because story is everything in the medium. In games, you can have nothing of high importance going on for a while and still be invested due to interactivity.
    - He recognizes the divisiveness of the second season from game fans. He's appreciative of their love for the material and finds it cool how people see a game as standing shoulder-to-shoulder with a HBO show. He thinks it highlights how gaming has elevated as a medium.
    - Abby's motivation and the porch scene were moved up due to the reality that the second game needed multiple seasons to be fully adapted. Neil and Craig felt these elements wouldn't land if they kept the game's structure due to how long TV viewers would have to wait to get to them. There was a fear that the impact of these elements would have been lost due to people not remembering the previous season clearly enough to draw connections.
    - Craig is very intrigued by the idea of the prophet and wants to expand on who she is in the future.

    Game highlights:
    - There was originally a sequence planned for one of the flashbacks in TLOU2 where we would play through an infected attack on Jackson as Ellie alongside Joel.
    - There was no intent for the WLF/Seraphite conflict to serve as an allegory for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. He took inspiration from the latter but he also took inspiration from other conflicts. Neil feels certain people online were cherry-picking statements to fit a narrative. He views the game conflict as a secular group clashing against a religious group.
    - He confirms he would be open to TLOU3 like he said in the documentary but wants to ensure he has the right idea for it that lives up to the series' pedigree
    - Neil's top priority right now is Intergalactic above all else. He claims it has the deepest gameplay they've ever done. 

    Last edited: Today at 2:57 AM

    Red Kong XIX
    Member

    Oct 11, 2020

    13,276

    Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

    That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. 

    ConflictResolver
    Member

    Jan 1, 2024

    4,907

    Midgar

    I thought it was left vague in both the game and the show until the show's latest episode.
     

    Philippo
    Developer
    Verified

    Oct 28, 2017

    8,836

    Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.
     

    Lotus
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    124,081

    I'm still saving her.
     

    FTF
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    33,203

    New York

    Philippo said:

    Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.

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    Agreed. It should be left unknown.
     

    Bansai
    Teyvat Traveler
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    14,176

    Maaan Neil really needs to stop, feels like he's stripping away what's left of the nuance with those latest comments on the story.

    Then again, his story, his right I suppose, my headcannon remains strong and stubborn though. :P

    btw. interesting interview  

    Risev
    "This guy are sick"
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    3,896

    Red Kong XIX said:

    Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

    That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.
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    I always got the impression the game wanted you to skip through the bullshit and just assume the cure would work, but it's still mediocre writing at best:

    - the lead doctor was a veterinarian.
    - the fireflies were desperate, lacking man power, and funds.
    - literally almost zero testing on Ellie before Just wanting to rip her brain out of her skull
    - literally zero attention given to the special circumstances that could have led to ellie being immune 

    The Quentulated Mox
    Corrupted by Vengeance
    Member

    Jun 10, 2022

    6,565

    hell yeah, next we should ask christopher nolan if the top was gonna fall down
     

    Mauricio_Magus
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    15,827

    Death of the author applies here, I don't really care what he has to say if it's not in the original game/text.

    It's clearly supposed to be ambiguous and it's staying that way for me. 

    Axiom
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    308

    Neil knowing the answer isn't the same as Joel knowing the answer - the only guarantee was that Ellie was going to die.
     

    FTF
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    33,203

    New York

    The Quentulated Mox said:

    hell yeah, next we should ask christopher nolan if the top was gonna fall down

    Click to expand...
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    lol
     

    Threadmarks Clarification on cure
    New

    Index

    OP

    OP

    Antoo
    Member

    May 1, 2019

    4,507

    For further context, he also states that if you had a different takeaway on the ending scenario of the first game, that's fully valid as well. He's just clarifying his authorial intent while also acknowledging that a player/viewer may read the situation much differently. I think he finds the philosophical question of saving a loved one versus saving the world more interesting than the specifics of how they got to that point.
     

    New

    Index

    harleyvwarren
    Member

    Oct 31, 2022

    5,299

    Illinois

    I always assumed there was a shot at a cure and that's what Joel denied humanity with his selfish, murderous behavior. There was no ambiguity about it for me playing the second game. It's just not subtle at all.
     

    behOemoth
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    6,687

    ConflictResolver said:

    I thought it was left vague in both the game and the show until the show's latest episode.

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    I think his answer still keeps it vague, but emphasising that serious possibilities existed
     

    Besiktas
    Member

    Sep 2, 2024

    914

    Why creators their own productruin years after a good product releases. Man just focus on making new stuff instead of clarifying theories.
     

    Risev
    "This guy are sick"
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    3,896

    Antoo said:

    For further context, he also states that if you had a different takeaway on the ending scenario of the first game, that's fully valid as well. He's just clarifying his authorial intent while also acknowledging that a player/viewer may read the situation much differently.

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    With all due respect to Niel, but that'a bullshit lmao. He also said the exact same thing about Ellie forgiving Joel / knowing he killed the fireflies at the end of the first game just a month or so before the release of Part 2 which gives a clear answer and renders any other interpretation invalid
     

    Kenzodielocke
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    13,948

    It's kind of moot if you make this so technichal

    Could they make it, could they deliver it, etc. 

    Lotus
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    124,081

    FTF said:

    Agreed. It should be left unknown.

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    The game came out over 12 years ago. The idea that a creator/author should just shut up and literally never comment on an ambiguous ending or complicated choice is so weird to me, especially when it's just his opinion at the end of the day. 

    Shoot
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    5,909

    Red Kong XIX said:

    Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

    That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.
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    This. I was surprised to see people online saying they couldn't make a cure. It also obviously had no bearing on Joel's decision to massacre the hospital either. He just went back to doing what he used to do with Tommy for 20 years.

    Definitely makes Druckmann's recent comment about doing what Joel did sound sociopathic. 

    VAD
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    6,099

    Philippo said:

    Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.

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    Yes, me too. I liked that the Fireflies were acting on the basis of hope rather than hard facts.

    Maybe Joel was right to save Ellie from pointless sacrifice. Maybe Ellie's savior complex was based on nothing and she was right to just live and enjoy life as it was. 

    Khanimus
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    46,469

    Greater Vancouver

    Woah Woah Woah... You mean Joel is a shitty self-serving asshole??!!

    Say it ain't so... 

    Zemoco
    Member

    Jan 12, 2021

    2,621

    Death of the author and all that, he really shouldn't confirm something like that. I suppose it's his right, but it hampers the discussion irrevocably.

    In either case, it does not make any sense on any level to kill the one girl with immunity milliseconds after making the deduction. Not to mention since the Fireflies are murderous, lying pricks anyway, it doesn't make any sense why Joel should believe them just because an omniscient entityconfirmed it. 

    SirKai
    Member

    Dec 28, 2017

    10,181

    Washington

    Will never understand why people split hairs over this or claim the supposed "ambiguity" of the vaccine viability adds anything to the story. In BOTH games, every character that matters is confident in the possibility of the vaccine, and that is what is important. People so DESPERATELY want to be morally vindicated that siding with Joel is not just righteous, but also rational even pursuit of a vaccine, even though the most passing glance interpretation of the ending is OBVIOUSLY written to not satisfy that perspective. It's a trolley problem, and the trolley problem is what makes the ending, and Joel's decision, interesting. If it's not actually a trolley problem, the ending and the story lose a lot of their depth and impact.
     

    Last edited: Today at 3:02 AM

    Risev
    "This guy are sick"
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    3,896

    Khanimus said:

    Woah Woah Woah... You mean Joel is a shitty self-serving asshole??!!

    Say it ain't so...
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    if only he picked up the phone when Neil was calling to tell him the cure works...
     

    SCUMMbag
    Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    7,199

    Red Kong XIX said:

    Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

    That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.
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    This.

    TLOU isn't a written masterpiece so there's some holes but the intention of those scenes were pretty clear.

    A lot of the ambiguity comes from things like "they did no testing" and "they decided this far too quick" which are just leaps you'd make to keep the pacing of your game. 

    Milk
    Prophet of Truth
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    4,292

    No shit. People trying to "um achually " their way out of Joel's choice ruins the entire point of the ending in the first place. If there's no realistic way to create and disperse a vaccine then there's no choice in the first place.

    At the same time, I get it. Obviously you want to realistically analyze parts of a story you're experiencing. But story intent still applies, in this instance, it's literally just better to accept the Fireflies at their word and assume a cure would work. 

    Kalentan
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    50,658

    I feel like the cure having been likely possible is far more interesting because it means Joel's decision has more around it. Cause yeah, his decision to kill them all means a lot more than if the cure was never possible and they were just a bunch idiots cause then Joel was 100% in the right to stop them.
     

    Glio
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    27,779

    Spain

    Red Kong XIX said:

    Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

    That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.
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    Because the science behind it was pretty stupid, tbh.

    But you're right, from a dramatic point of view, it needs to be that way. 

    bob1001
    ▲ Legend ▲
    Member

    May 7, 2020

    2,109

    If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves.

    If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers.

    I never understood why anyone would prefer a Mario saves Peach style ending instead of the actual interesting ending we got. When you question their ability to make a cure you are arguing the ending is worse than it is. 

    Kalentan
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    50,658

    bob1001 said:

    If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves.

    If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers.

    I never understood why anyone would prefer a Mario saves Peach style ending instead of the actual interesting ending we got. When you question their ability to make a cure you are arguing the ending is worse than it is.
    Click to expand...
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    Exactly. 

    Risev
    "This guy are sick"
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    3,896

    Milk said:

    No shit. People trying to "um achually " their way out of Joel's choice ruins the entire point of the ending in the first place. If there's no realistic way to create and disperse a vaccine then there's no choice in the first place.

    At the same time, I get it. Obviously you want to realistically analyze parts of a story you're experiencing. But story intent still applies, in this instance, it's literally just better to accept the Fireflies at their word and assume a cure would work.
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    I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot.

    Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story 

    Kenzodielocke
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    13,948

    The arguments about if the cure would have worked come usually from people who want to justify hie actions.

    The justification there actually is, love.

    Edit: "They didn't even ask her" point is also kind of moot because how often we heard from Ellies mouth that she would have done it. 

    mbpm
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    29,491

    I thought it was more interesting leaving it unknown
     

    psynergyadept
    Shinra Employee
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    19,044

    It was always the case; people just obscured things to make themselves feel better about Joel's decision.

    The whole point of the games ending was dealing with the "many by the cost of one/few" trope we've seen before. 

    EatChildren
    Wonder from Down Under
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    7,595

    Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    The story is infinitely more interesting and thought provoking, particularly in regards to character motivations, actions, and subsequent consequences, when the climax of the first game is viewed through the lens of the unknown; that people and groups make decisions and take actions, sometimes decisively and recklessly, without knowing for sure what the totality of consequence will be, or being fundamentally unable to know if the risks taken are worth the cost.

    I don't even care about the science behind it. Knowing the cure would/wouldn't work sucks shit and is a boring lame framing of the narrative. Not knowing adds a hefty ambiguity and weight to the choices made. People making decisions, or committing to causes, without ever fully knowing for sure how subsequent events will transpire, is literally how life works is is the ultimate fuel and weight behind our personal journey through guilt and accountability. 

    SirKai
    Member

    Dec 28, 2017

    10,181

    Washington

    Risev said:

    I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot.

    Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story
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    I'm not a Neil defender, but that's not a shortcoming of a writer; that's just an extremely basic aspect of storytelling to motivate the drama and create interesting circumstances. Pretty much no long-form story that depends on exceptional scenarios is going to be free of contrivance or convenience. Some stories obviously take it too far and it can make the narrative feel too arbitrarily authored and unnatural, and every individual person has their own threshold for how far they can suspend their disbelief, but the willingness to trust writers by suspending our disbelief is what makes stories strong and effective, and a writer depending on their audience to be able to do that, at least to some extent, is not a weakness. 

    Altairre
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    5,211

    Risev said:

    With all due respect to Niel, but that'a bullshit lmao. He also said the exact same thing about Ellie forgiving Joel / knowing he killed the fireflies at the end of the first game just a month or so before the release of Part 2 which gives a clear answer and renders any other interpretation invalid

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    It doesn't really matter what he says because within the text there clearly is ambiguity and there is basically no way to retcon that away. Considering their situation, what the audio logs say and the state of the world it's definitely a long shot but it's also THE long shot.

    Risev said:

    I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot.

    Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story
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    I'm not sure that the situation in LoU qualifies as a plot hole tbh.
     

    Jubern
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    1,597

    Mauricio_Magus said:

    Death of the author applies here, I don't really care what he has to say if it's not in the original game/text.

    It's clearly supposed to be ambiguous and it's staying that way for me.
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    Exactly where I stand. Why he would want to clarify/comment on this so long after the fact leaves me dumbfounded.
     

    FTF
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    33,203

    New York

    EatChildren said:

    Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    The story is infinitely more interesting and thought provoking, particularly in regards to character motivations, actions, and subsequent consequences, when the climax of the first game is viewed through the lens of the unknown; that people and groups make decisions and take actions, sometimes decisively and recklessly, without knowing for sure what the totality of consequence will be, or being fundamentally unable to know if the risks taken are worth the cost.

    I don't even care about the science behind it. Knowing the cure would/wouldn't work sucks shit and is a boring lame framing of the narrative. Not knowing adds a hefty ambiguity and weight to the choices made. People making decisions, or committing to causes, without ever fully knowing for sure how subsequent events will transpire, is literally how life works is is the ultimate fuel and weight behind our personal journey through guilt and accountability.
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    Yeah, this is what I meant and said sooo much better lol.
     

    Cantaim
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    35,072

    The Stussining

    I always thought it would have worked as well. The entire game is building up to Joel facing the Trolley problem but with Ellie on the track. I don't think it really has any teeth if you just say killing Ellie doesn't do anything.
     

    Crossing Eden
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    58,520

    Kenzodielocke said:

    It's kind of moot if you make this so technichal

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    You aren't supposed to because it's not real life

    Cantaim said:

    I always thought it would have worked as well. The entire game is building up to Joel facing the Trolley problem but with Ellie on the track. I don't think it really has any teeth if you just say killing Ellie doesn't do anything.

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    It's funny because literally nothing about the story ever implies that the cure wouldn't work. For every single thing that gets addressed in a "grounded" way that particular tidbit has never been more than people using it as an excuse to justify/lighten the severity of Joel's actions.

    "Eh does it really matter that he shot up the hospital at the end of the day? Not like the cure would've worked anyways. I, the player/Joel did nothing wrong." 

    TacoSupreme
    Member

    Jul 26, 2019

    2,092

    SirKai said:

    I'm not a Neil defender, but that's not a shortcoming of a writer; that's just an extremely basic aspect of storytelling to motivate the drama and create interesting circumstances. Pretty much no long-form story that depends on exceptional scenarios is going to be free of contrivance or convenience. Some stories obviously take it too far and it can make the narrative feel too arbitrarily authored and unnatural, and every individual person has their own threshold for how far they can suspend their disbelief, but the willingness to trust writers by suspending our disbelief is what makes stories strong and effective, and a writer depending on their audience to be able to do that, at least to some extent, is not a weakness.

    Click to expand...
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    Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with this. It's not about suspending disbelief, it's about the game deliberately making the whole situation with the Fireflies seem sketchy. I genuinely spit out my drink and started laughing when it was revealed that they were going to instantly take the precious immune person and dissect her almost immediately after getting their hands on her. This goes beyond contrivance or convenience and into the realm of deliberately misleading the player into thinking there's ambiguity. All it would have taken is something denoting the passage of time prior to wanting to scoop out her brain and it would have been fine. It's not about suspending disbelief, it's about making unneeded decisions that mislead the player. 

    GMM
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    5,797

    If they really would have made a cure or not kinda doesn't matter in the context of the story, it's about how Joel put himself over the needs of the world. Everyone out there trying to survive would agree that Ellie's sacrifice would be worth restoring some semblance of peace to the world even if it wasn't a safe bet, Ellie herself would have wanted to save the world but Joel made that choice for her.

    It's all about Joel being the selfish person he is, he chose himself over everyone else. 

    Terbinator
    Member

    Oct 29, 2017

    13,379

    Honestly don't think the cure being viable or not matters at all.

    Joel makes the decision to save Ellie to save his second daughter. It's really not that deep and you also have no agency over this in the game.

    Whether that's the moral thing to do on the promise of a cure is an open question. 

    MrKlaw
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    36,871

    Reality doesn't matterbut from a story perspective it makes sense that at least Joel believes its possible to have a cure - it makes the narrative and his reaction stronger, and the 'my life could have meant something' from Ellie's side stronger to create that necessary tension.

    But I don't like it. 

    Sinah
    Member

    Jun 2, 2022

    1,254

    I mean yeah so? Honestly personally i don't think it even really matters at that point world was already in a absolute shit state with literal cannibal and murderers everywhere and the infected can not be cured so you still have millions of monsters running around everywhere ripping ppl apart.

    There was nothing worth saving even if they did manage to make a cure and actually distribute it which is definitely the bigger problem here considering the state the Fireflys where in and the logistics involved. 

    Last edited: Today at 3:24 AM

    Vyse
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    1,641

    Joel might have pressed a 100% cure button that kills his daughter but even a 1% chance it was a hail mary by sketchy people guaranteed the slaughter.
     

    Agni Kai
    Member

    Nov 2, 2017

    10,001

    None of youwould let your child die to save other people.

    This new piece of information changes nothing. Joel could've never know. 

    Crossing Eden
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    58,520

    Agni Kai said:

    None of youwould let your child die to save other people.

    This new piece of information changes nothing. Joel could've never know.
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    He never once doubted that it would work though.
     
    #neil #druckmann #confirms #fireflies #could
    Neil Druckmann confirms the Fireflies could have made a viable cure in interview (+ other insights on the show, games, and future)
    Antoo Member May 1, 2019 4,507 Full on spoilers for TLOU1, TLOU2, and both seasons of the show ahead I saw this clip on the TLOU subreddit making the rounds. Neil goes into the viability of the cure, and he says this: "Could the Fireflies make a cure? Our intent was that, yes, they could. Now, is our science a little shaky that now people are questioning it? Yeah, it was a little shaky and now people are questioning that. I can't say anything. All I can say is that our intent is that they would have made a cure. That makes it a more interesting philosophical question for what Joel does." Click to expand... Click to shrink... / I can't post the interview due to the interviewer, however, if you are a fan of TLOU, I would suggest maybe looking for articles/posts covering it or finding the interview yourself. Neil goes into A LOT. I'll bullet point some highlights. Show highlights: - Neil says Ellie and Dina's relationship was intentionally static in the game. The same approach wouldn't work for the show because shows need movement. - The series needs constant conflict/progression because story is everything in the medium. In games, you can have nothing of high importance going on for a while and still be invested due to interactivity. - He recognizes the divisiveness of the second season from game fans. He's appreciative of their love for the material and finds it cool how people see a game as standing shoulder-to-shoulder with a HBO show. He thinks it highlights how gaming has elevated as a medium. - Abby's motivation and the porch scene were moved up due to the reality that the second game needed multiple seasons to be fully adapted. Neil and Craig felt these elements wouldn't land if they kept the game's structure due to how long TV viewers would have to wait to get to them. There was a fear that the impact of these elements would have been lost due to people not remembering the previous season clearly enough to draw connections. - Craig is very intrigued by the idea of the prophet and wants to expand on who she is in the future. Game highlights: - There was originally a sequence planned for one of the flashbacks in TLOU2 where we would play through an infected attack on Jackson as Ellie alongside Joel. - There was no intent for the WLF/Seraphite conflict to serve as an allegory for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. He took inspiration from the latter but he also took inspiration from other conflicts. Neil feels certain people online were cherry-picking statements to fit a narrative. He views the game conflict as a secular group clashing against a religious group. - He confirms he would be open to TLOU3 like he said in the documentary but wants to ensure he has the right idea for it that lives up to the series' pedigree - Neil's top priority right now is Intergalactic above all else. He claims it has the deepest gameplay they've ever done.  Last edited: Today at 2:57 AM Red Kong XIX Member Oct 11, 2020 13,276 Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.  ConflictResolver Member Jan 1, 2024 4,907 Midgar I thought it was left vague in both the game and the show until the show's latest episode.   Philippo Developer Verified Oct 28, 2017 8,836 Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.   Lotus One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 124,081 I'm still saving her.   FTF Member Oct 28, 2017 33,203 New York Philippo said: Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Agreed. It should be left unknown.   Bansai Teyvat Traveler Member Oct 28, 2017 14,176 Maaan Neil really needs to stop, feels like he's stripping away what's left of the nuance with those latest comments on the story. Then again, his story, his right I suppose, my headcannon remains strong and stubborn though. :P btw. interesting interview 🤔  Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I always got the impression the game wanted you to skip through the bullshit and just assume the cure would work, but it's still mediocre writing at best: - the lead doctor was a veterinarian. - the fireflies were desperate, lacking man power, and funds. - literally almost zero testing on Ellie before Just wanting to rip her brain out of her skull - literally zero attention given to the special circumstances that could have led to ellie being immune  The Quentulated Mox Corrupted by Vengeance Member Jun 10, 2022 6,565 hell yeah, next we should ask christopher nolan if the top was gonna fall down   Mauricio_Magus Member Oct 25, 2017 15,827 Death of the author applies here, I don't really care what he has to say if it's not in the original game/text. It's clearly supposed to be ambiguous and it's staying that way for me.  Axiom Member Oct 25, 2017 308 Neil knowing the answer isn't the same as Joel knowing the answer - the only guarantee was that Ellie was going to die.   FTF Member Oct 28, 2017 33,203 New York The Quentulated Mox said: hell yeah, next we should ask christopher nolan if the top was gonna fall down Click to expand... Click to shrink... lol   Threadmarks Clarification on cure New Index OP OP Antoo Member May 1, 2019 4,507 For further context, he also states that if you had a different takeaway on the ending scenario of the first game, that's fully valid as well. He's just clarifying his authorial intent while also acknowledging that a player/viewer may read the situation much differently. I think he finds the philosophical question of saving a loved one versus saving the world more interesting than the specifics of how they got to that point.   New Index harleyvwarren Member Oct 31, 2022 5,299 Illinois I always assumed there was a shot at a cure and that's what Joel denied humanity with his selfish, murderous behavior. There was no ambiguity about it for me playing the second game. It's just not subtle at all.   behOemoth Member Oct 27, 2017 6,687 ConflictResolver said: I thought it was left vague in both the game and the show until the show's latest episode. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I think his answer still keeps it vague, but emphasising that serious possibilities existed   Besiktas Member Sep 2, 2024 914 Why creators their own productruin years after a good product releases. Man just focus on making new stuff instead of clarifying theories.   Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Antoo said: For further context, he also states that if you had a different takeaway on the ending scenario of the first game, that's fully valid as well. He's just clarifying his authorial intent while also acknowledging that a player/viewer may read the situation much differently. Click to expand... Click to shrink... With all due respect to Niel, but that'a bullshit lmao. He also said the exact same thing about Ellie forgiving Joel / knowing he killed the fireflies at the end of the first game just a month or so before the release of Part 2 which gives a clear answer and renders any other interpretation invalid   Kenzodielocke Member Oct 25, 2017 13,948 It's kind of moot if you make this so technichal Could they make it, could they deliver it, etc.  Lotus One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 124,081 FTF said: Agreed. It should be left unknown. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The game came out over 12 years ago. The idea that a creator/author should just shut up and literally never comment on an ambiguous ending or complicated choice is so weird to me, especially when it's just his opinion at the end of the day.  Shoot Member Oct 25, 2017 5,909 Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... This. I was surprised to see people online saying they couldn't make a cure. It also obviously had no bearing on Joel's decision to massacre the hospital either. He just went back to doing what he used to do with Tommy for 20 years. Definitely makes Druckmann's recent comment about doing what Joel did sound sociopathic.  VAD Member Oct 28, 2017 6,099 Philippo said: Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yes, me too. I liked that the Fireflies were acting on the basis of hope rather than hard facts. Maybe Joel was right to save Ellie from pointless sacrifice. Maybe Ellie's savior complex was based on nothing and she was right to just live and enjoy life as it was.  Khanimus Avenger Oct 25, 2017 46,469 Greater Vancouver Woah Woah Woah... You mean Joel is a shitty self-serving asshole??!! Say it ain't so...  Zemoco Member Jan 12, 2021 2,621 Death of the author and all that, he really shouldn't confirm something like that. I suppose it's his right, but it hampers the discussion irrevocably. In either case, it does not make any sense on any level to kill the one girl with immunity milliseconds after making the deduction. Not to mention since the Fireflies are murderous, lying pricks anyway, it doesn't make any sense why Joel should believe them just because an omniscient entityconfirmed it.  SirKai Member Dec 28, 2017 10,181 Washington Will never understand why people split hairs over this or claim the supposed "ambiguity" of the vaccine viability adds anything to the story. In BOTH games, every character that matters is confident in the possibility of the vaccine, and that is what is important. People so DESPERATELY want to be morally vindicated that siding with Joel is not just righteous, but also rational even pursuit of a vaccine, even though the most passing glance interpretation of the ending is OBVIOUSLY written to not satisfy that perspective. It's a trolley problem, and the trolley problem is what makes the ending, and Joel's decision, interesting. If it's not actually a trolley problem, the ending and the story lose a lot of their depth and impact.   Last edited: Today at 3:02 AM Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Khanimus said: Woah Woah Woah... You mean Joel is a shitty self-serving asshole??!! Say it ain't so... Click to expand... Click to shrink... if only he picked up the phone when Neil was calling to tell him the cure works...   SCUMMbag Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser Member Oct 25, 2017 7,199 Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... This. TLOU isn't a written masterpiece so there's some holes but the intention of those scenes were pretty clear. A lot of the ambiguity comes from things like "they did no testing" and "they decided this far too quick" which are just leaps you'd make to keep the pacing of your game.  Milk Prophet of Truth Avenger Oct 25, 2017 4,292 No shit. People trying to "um achually ☝️🤓" their way out of Joel's choice ruins the entire point of the ending in the first place. If there's no realistic way to create and disperse a vaccine then there's no choice in the first place. At the same time, I get it. Obviously you want to realistically analyze parts of a story you're experiencing. But story intent still applies, in this instance, it's literally just better to accept the Fireflies at their word and assume a cure would work.  Kalentan Member Oct 25, 2017 50,658 I feel like the cure having been likely possible is far more interesting because it means Joel's decision has more around it. Cause yeah, his decision to kill them all means a lot more than if the cure was never possible and they were just a bunch idiots cause then Joel was 100% in the right to stop them.   Glio Member Oct 27, 2017 27,779 Spain Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Because the science behind it was pretty stupid, tbh. But you're right, from a dramatic point of view, it needs to be that way.  bob1001 ▲ Legend ▲ Member May 7, 2020 2,109 If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves. If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers. I never understood why anyone would prefer a Mario saves Peach style ending instead of the actual interesting ending we got. When you question their ability to make a cure you are arguing the ending is worse than it is.  Kalentan Member Oct 25, 2017 50,658 bob1001 said: If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves. If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers. I never understood why anyone would prefer a Mario saves Peach style ending instead of the actual interesting ending we got. When you question their ability to make a cure you are arguing the ending is worse than it is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Exactly.  Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Milk said: No shit. People trying to "um achually ☝️🤓" their way out of Joel's choice ruins the entire point of the ending in the first place. If there's no realistic way to create and disperse a vaccine then there's no choice in the first place. At the same time, I get it. Obviously you want to realistically analyze parts of a story you're experiencing. But story intent still applies, in this instance, it's literally just better to accept the Fireflies at their word and assume a cure would work. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot. Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story  Kenzodielocke Member Oct 25, 2017 13,948 The arguments about if the cure would have worked come usually from people who want to justify hie actions. The justification there actually is, love. Edit: "They didn't even ask her" point is also kind of moot because how often we heard from Ellies mouth that she would have done it.  mbpm Member Oct 25, 2017 29,491 I thought it was more interesting leaving it unknown   psynergyadept Shinra Employee Member Oct 26, 2017 19,044 It was always the case; people just obscured things to make themselves feel better about Joel's decision. The whole point of the games ending was dealing with the "many by the cost of one/few" trope we've seen before.  EatChildren Wonder from Down Under Member Oct 27, 2017 7,595 Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo The story is infinitely more interesting and thought provoking, particularly in regards to character motivations, actions, and subsequent consequences, when the climax of the first game is viewed through the lens of the unknown; that people and groups make decisions and take actions, sometimes decisively and recklessly, without knowing for sure what the totality of consequence will be, or being fundamentally unable to know if the risks taken are worth the cost. I don't even care about the science behind it. Knowing the cure would/wouldn't work sucks shit and is a boring lame framing of the narrative. Not knowing adds a hefty ambiguity and weight to the choices made. People making decisions, or committing to causes, without ever fully knowing for sure how subsequent events will transpire, is literally how life works is is the ultimate fuel and weight behind our personal journey through guilt and accountability.  SirKai Member Dec 28, 2017 10,181 Washington Risev said: I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot. Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm not a Neil defender, but that's not a shortcoming of a writer; that's just an extremely basic aspect of storytelling to motivate the drama and create interesting circumstances. Pretty much no long-form story that depends on exceptional scenarios is going to be free of contrivance or convenience. Some stories obviously take it too far and it can make the narrative feel too arbitrarily authored and unnatural, and every individual person has their own threshold for how far they can suspend their disbelief, but the willingness to trust writers by suspending our disbelief is what makes stories strong and effective, and a writer depending on their audience to be able to do that, at least to some extent, is not a weakness.  Altairre Member Oct 25, 2017 5,211 Risev said: With all due respect to Niel, but that'a bullshit lmao. He also said the exact same thing about Ellie forgiving Joel / knowing he killed the fireflies at the end of the first game just a month or so before the release of Part 2 which gives a clear answer and renders any other interpretation invalid Click to expand... Click to shrink... It doesn't really matter what he says because within the text there clearly is ambiguity and there is basically no way to retcon that away. Considering their situation, what the audio logs say and the state of the world it's definitely a long shot but it's also THE long shot. Risev said: I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot. Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm not sure that the situation in LoU qualifies as a plot hole tbh.   Jubern Member Oct 25, 2017 1,597 Mauricio_Magus said: Death of the author applies here, I don't really care what he has to say if it's not in the original game/text. It's clearly supposed to be ambiguous and it's staying that way for me. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Exactly where I stand. Why he would want to clarify/comment on this so long after the fact leaves me dumbfounded.   FTF Member Oct 28, 2017 33,203 New York EatChildren said: Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo The story is infinitely more interesting and thought provoking, particularly in regards to character motivations, actions, and subsequent consequences, when the climax of the first game is viewed through the lens of the unknown; that people and groups make decisions and take actions, sometimes decisively and recklessly, without knowing for sure what the totality of consequence will be, or being fundamentally unable to know if the risks taken are worth the cost. I don't even care about the science behind it. Knowing the cure would/wouldn't work sucks shit and is a boring lame framing of the narrative. Not knowing adds a hefty ambiguity and weight to the choices made. People making decisions, or committing to causes, without ever fully knowing for sure how subsequent events will transpire, is literally how life works is is the ultimate fuel and weight behind our personal journey through guilt and accountability. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, this is what I meant and said sooo much better lol.   Cantaim Member Oct 25, 2017 35,072 The Stussining I always thought it would have worked as well. The entire game is building up to Joel facing the Trolley problem but with Ellie on the track. I don't think it really has any teeth if you just say killing Ellie doesn't do anything.   Crossing Eden Member Oct 26, 2017 58,520 Kenzodielocke said: It's kind of moot if you make this so technichal Click to expand... Click to shrink... You aren't supposed to because it's not real life Cantaim said: I always thought it would have worked as well. The entire game is building up to Joel facing the Trolley problem but with Ellie on the track. I don't think it really has any teeth if you just say killing Ellie doesn't do anything. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's funny because literally nothing about the story ever implies that the cure wouldn't work. For every single thing that gets addressed in a "grounded" way that particular tidbit has never been more than people using it as an excuse to justify/lighten the severity of Joel's actions. "Eh does it really matter that he shot up the hospital at the end of the day? Not like the cure would've worked anyways. I, the player/Joel did nothing wrong."  TacoSupreme Member Jul 26, 2019 2,092 SirKai said: I'm not a Neil defender, but that's not a shortcoming of a writer; that's just an extremely basic aspect of storytelling to motivate the drama and create interesting circumstances. Pretty much no long-form story that depends on exceptional scenarios is going to be free of contrivance or convenience. Some stories obviously take it too far and it can make the narrative feel too arbitrarily authored and unnatural, and every individual person has their own threshold for how far they can suspend their disbelief, but the willingness to trust writers by suspending our disbelief is what makes stories strong and effective, and a writer depending on their audience to be able to do that, at least to some extent, is not a weakness. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with this. It's not about suspending disbelief, it's about the game deliberately making the whole situation with the Fireflies seem sketchy. I genuinely spit out my drink and started laughing when it was revealed that they were going to instantly take the precious immune person and dissect her almost immediately after getting their hands on her. This goes beyond contrivance or convenience and into the realm of deliberately misleading the player into thinking there's ambiguity. All it would have taken is something denoting the passage of time prior to wanting to scoop out her brain and it would have been fine. It's not about suspending disbelief, it's about making unneeded decisions that mislead the player.  GMM Member Oct 27, 2017 5,797 If they really would have made a cure or not kinda doesn't matter in the context of the story, it's about how Joel put himself over the needs of the world. Everyone out there trying to survive would agree that Ellie's sacrifice would be worth restoring some semblance of peace to the world even if it wasn't a safe bet, Ellie herself would have wanted to save the world but Joel made that choice for her. It's all about Joel being the selfish person he is, he chose himself over everyone else.  Terbinator Member Oct 29, 2017 13,379 Honestly don't think the cure being viable or not matters at all. Joel makes the decision to save Ellie to save his second daughter. It's really not that deep and you also have no agency over this in the game. Whether that's the moral thing to do on the promise of a cure is an open question.  MrKlaw Member Oct 25, 2017 36,871 Reality doesn't matterbut from a story perspective it makes sense that at least Joel believes its possible to have a cure - it makes the narrative and his reaction stronger, and the 'my life could have meant something' from Ellie's side stronger to create that necessary tension. But I don't like it.  Sinah Member Jun 2, 2022 1,254 I mean yeah so? Honestly personally i don't think it even really matters at that point world was already in a absolute shit state with literal cannibal and murderers everywhere and the infected can not be cured so you still have millions of monsters running around everywhere ripping ppl apart. There was nothing worth saving even if they did manage to make a cure and actually distribute it which is definitely the bigger problem here considering the state the Fireflys where in and the logistics involved.  Last edited: Today at 3:24 AM Vyse One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 1,641 Joel might have pressed a 100% cure button that kills his daughter but even a 1% chance it was a hail mary by sketchy people guaranteed the slaughter.   Agni Kai Member Nov 2, 2017 10,001 None of youwould let your child die to save other people. This new piece of information changes nothing. Joel could've never know.  Crossing Eden Member Oct 26, 2017 58,520 Agni Kai said: None of youwould let your child die to save other people. This new piece of information changes nothing. Joel could've never know. Click to expand... Click to shrink... He never once doubted that it would work though.   #neil #druckmann #confirms #fireflies #could
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    Neil Druckmann confirms the Fireflies could have made a viable cure in interview (+ other insights on the show, games, and future)
    Antoo Member May 1, 2019 4,507 Full on spoilers for TLOU1, TLOU2, and both seasons of the show ahead I saw this clip on the TLOU subreddit making the rounds. Neil goes into the viability of the cure, and he says this: "Could the Fireflies make a cure? Our intent was that, yes, they could. Now, is our science a little shaky that now people are questioning it? Yeah, it was a little shaky and now people are questioning that. I can't say anything. All I can say is that our intent is that they would have made a cure. That makes it a more interesting philosophical question for what Joel does." Click to expand... Click to shrink... https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/1krqoz0/neil_debunks_the_cure_viability_debate_once_for/ I can't post the interview due to the interviewer, however, if you are a fan of TLOU, I would suggest maybe looking for articles/posts covering it or finding the interview yourself. Neil goes into A LOT. I'll bullet point some highlights. Show highlights: - Neil says Ellie and Dina's relationship was intentionally static in the game. The same approach wouldn't work for the show because shows need movement. - The series needs constant conflict/progression because story is everything in the medium. In games, you can have nothing of high importance going on for a while and still be invested due to interactivity. - He recognizes the divisiveness of the second season from game fans. He's appreciative of their love for the material and finds it cool how people see a game as standing shoulder-to-shoulder with a HBO show. He thinks it highlights how gaming has elevated as a medium. - Abby's motivation and the porch scene were moved up due to the reality that the second game needed multiple seasons to be fully adapted. Neil and Craig felt these elements wouldn't land if they kept the game's structure due to how long TV viewers would have to wait to get to them. There was a fear that the impact of these elements would have been lost due to people not remembering the previous season clearly enough to draw connections. - Craig is very intrigued by the idea of the prophet and wants to expand on who she is in the future. Game highlights: - There was originally a sequence planned for one of the flashbacks in TLOU2 where we would play through an infected attack on Jackson as Ellie alongside Joel. - There was no intent for the WLF/Seraphite conflict to serve as an allegory for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. He took inspiration from the latter but he also took inspiration from other conflicts. Neil feels certain people online were cherry-picking statements to fit a narrative. He views the game conflict as a secular group clashing against a religious group. - He confirms he would be open to TLOU3 like he said in the documentary but wants to ensure he has the right idea for it that lives up to the series' pedigree - Neil's top priority right now is Intergalactic above all else. He claims it has the deepest gameplay they've ever done.  Last edited: Today at 2:57 AM Red Kong XIX Member Oct 11, 2020 13,276 Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.  ConflictResolver Member Jan 1, 2024 4,907 Midgar I thought it was left vague in both the game and the show until the show's latest episode.   Philippo Developer Verified Oct 28, 2017 8,836 Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.   Lotus One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 124,081 I'm still saving her.   FTF Member Oct 28, 2017 33,203 New York Philippo said: Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Agreed. It should be left unknown.   Bansai Teyvat Traveler Member Oct 28, 2017 14,176 Maaan Neil really needs to stop, feels like he's stripping away what's left of the nuance with those latest comments on the story. Then again, his story, his right I suppose, my headcannon remains strong and stubborn though. :P btw. interesting interview 🤔  Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I always got the impression the game wanted you to skip through the bullshit and just assume the cure would work, but it's still mediocre writing at best: - the lead doctor was a veterinarian. - the fireflies were desperate, lacking man power, and funds. - literally almost zero testing on Ellie before Just wanting to rip her brain out of her skull - literally zero attention given to the special circumstances that could have led to ellie being immune  The Quentulated Mox Corrupted by Vengeance Member Jun 10, 2022 6,565 hell yeah, next we should ask christopher nolan if the top was gonna fall down   Mauricio_Magus Member Oct 25, 2017 15,827 Death of the author applies here, I don't really care what he has to say if it's not in the original game/text. It's clearly supposed to be ambiguous and it's staying that way for me.  Axiom Member Oct 25, 2017 308 Neil knowing the answer isn't the same as Joel knowing the answer - the only guarantee was that Ellie was going to die.   FTF Member Oct 28, 2017 33,203 New York The Quentulated Mox said: hell yeah, next we should ask christopher nolan if the top was gonna fall down Click to expand... Click to shrink... lol   Threadmarks Clarification on cure New Index OP OP Antoo Member May 1, 2019 4,507 For further context, he also states that if you had a different takeaway on the ending scenario of the first game, that's fully valid as well. He's just clarifying his authorial intent while also acknowledging that a player/viewer may read the situation much differently. I think he finds the philosophical question of saving a loved one versus saving the world more interesting than the specifics of how they got to that point.   New Index harleyvwarren Member Oct 31, 2022 5,299 Illinois I always assumed there was a shot at a cure and that's what Joel denied humanity with his selfish, murderous behavior. There was no ambiguity about it for me playing the second game. It's just not subtle at all.   behOemoth Member Oct 27, 2017 6,687 ConflictResolver said: I thought it was left vague in both the game and the show until the show's latest episode. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I think his answer still keeps it vague, but emphasising that serious possibilities existed   Besiktas Member Sep 2, 2024 914 Why creators their own productruin years after a good product releases. Man just focus on making new stuff instead of clarifying theories.   Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Antoo said: For further context, he also states that if you had a different takeaway on the ending scenario of the first game, that's fully valid as well. He's just clarifying his authorial intent while also acknowledging that a player/viewer may read the situation much differently. Click to expand... Click to shrink... With all due respect to Niel, but that'a bullshit lmao. He also said the exact same thing about Ellie forgiving Joel / knowing he killed the fireflies at the end of the first game just a month or so before the release of Part 2 which gives a clear answer and renders any other interpretation invalid   Kenzodielocke Member Oct 25, 2017 13,948 It's kind of moot if you make this so technichal Could they make it, could they deliver it, etc.  Lotus One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 124,081 FTF said: Agreed. It should be left unknown. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The game came out over 12 years ago. The idea that a creator/author should just shut up and literally never comment on an ambiguous ending or complicated choice is so weird to me, especially when it's just his opinion at the end of the day.  Shoot Member Oct 25, 2017 5,909 Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... This. I was surprised to see people online saying they couldn't make a cure. It also obviously had no bearing on Joel's decision to massacre the hospital either. He just went back to doing what he used to do with Tommy for 20 years. Definitely makes Druckmann's recent comment about doing what Joel did sound sociopathic.  VAD Member Oct 28, 2017 6,099 Philippo said: Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yes, me too. I liked that the Fireflies were acting on the basis of hope rather than hard facts. Maybe Joel was right to save Ellie from pointless sacrifice. Maybe Ellie's savior complex was based on nothing and she was right to just live and enjoy life as it was.  Khanimus Avenger Oct 25, 2017 46,469 Greater Vancouver Woah Woah Woah... You mean Joel is a shitty self-serving asshole??!! Say it ain't so...  Zemoco Member Jan 12, 2021 2,621 Death of the author and all that, he really shouldn't confirm something like that. I suppose it's his right, but it hampers the discussion irrevocably. In either case, it does not make any sense on any level to kill the one girl with immunity milliseconds after making the deduction. Not to mention since the Fireflies are murderous, lying pricks anyway, it doesn't make any sense why Joel should believe them just because an omniscient entity (as far as the universe is concerned) confirmed it.  SirKai Member Dec 28, 2017 10,181 Washington Will never understand why people split hairs over this or claim the supposed "ambiguity" of the vaccine viability adds anything to the story. In BOTH games, every character that matters is confident in the possibility of the vaccine, and that is what is important. People so DESPERATELY want to be morally vindicated that siding with Joel is not just righteous, but also rational even pursuit of a vaccine, even though the most passing glance interpretation of the ending is OBVIOUSLY written to not satisfy that perspective. It's a trolley problem, and the trolley problem is what makes the ending, and Joel's decision, interesting. If it's not actually a trolley problem, the ending and the story lose a lot of their depth and impact.   Last edited: Today at 3:02 AM Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Khanimus said: Woah Woah Woah... You mean Joel is a shitty self-serving asshole??!! Say it ain't so... Click to expand... Click to shrink... if only he picked up the phone when Neil was calling to tell him the cure works...   SCUMMbag Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser Member Oct 25, 2017 7,199 Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... This. TLOU isn't a written masterpiece so there's some holes but the intention of those scenes were pretty clear. A lot of the ambiguity comes from things like "they did no testing" and "they decided this far too quick" which are just leaps you'd make to keep the pacing of your game.  Milk Prophet of Truth Avenger Oct 25, 2017 4,292 No shit. People trying to "um achually ☝️🤓" their way out of Joel's choice ruins the entire point of the ending in the first place. If there's no realistic way to create and disperse a vaccine then there's no choice in the first place. At the same time, I get it. Obviously you want to realistically analyze parts of a story you're experiencing. But story intent still applies, in this instance, it's literally just better to accept the Fireflies at their word and assume a cure would work.  Kalentan Member Oct 25, 2017 50,658 I feel like the cure having been likely possible is far more interesting because it means Joel's decision has more around it. Cause yeah, his decision to kill them all means a lot more than if the cure was never possible and they were just a bunch idiots cause then Joel was 100% in the right to stop them.   Glio Member Oct 27, 2017 27,779 Spain Red Kong XIX said: Never understood why people thought they couldn't. That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Because the science behind it was pretty stupid, tbh. But you're right, from a dramatic point of view, it needs to be that way.  bob1001 ▲ Legend ▲ Member May 7, 2020 2,109 If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves. If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers. I never understood why anyone would prefer a Mario saves Peach style ending instead of the actual interesting ending we got. When you question their ability to make a cure you are arguing the ending is worse than it is.  Kalentan Member Oct 25, 2017 50,658 bob1001 said: If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves. If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers. I never understood why anyone would prefer a Mario saves Peach style ending instead of the actual interesting ending we got. When you question their ability to make a cure you are arguing the ending is worse than it is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Exactly.  Risev "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 3,896 Milk said: No shit. People trying to "um achually ☝️🤓" their way out of Joel's choice ruins the entire point of the ending in the first place. If there's no realistic way to create and disperse a vaccine then there's no choice in the first place. At the same time, I get it. Obviously you want to realistically analyze parts of a story you're experiencing. But story intent still applies, in this instance, it's literally just better to accept the Fireflies at their word and assume a cure would work. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot. Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story  Kenzodielocke Member Oct 25, 2017 13,948 The arguments about if the cure would have worked come usually from people who want to justify hie actions. The justification there actually is, love. Edit: "They didn't even ask her" point is also kind of moot because how often we heard from Ellies mouth that she would have done it.  mbpm Member Oct 25, 2017 29,491 I thought it was more interesting leaving it unknown   psynergyadept Shinra Employee Member Oct 26, 2017 19,044 It was always the case; people just obscured things to make themselves feel better about Joel's decision. The whole point of the games ending was dealing with the "Save many by the cost of one/few" trope we've seen before.  EatChildren Wonder from Down Under Member Oct 27, 2017 7,595 Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo The story is infinitely more interesting and thought provoking, particularly in regards to character motivations, actions, and subsequent consequences, when the climax of the first game is viewed through the lens of the unknown; that people and groups make decisions and take actions, sometimes decisively and recklessly, without knowing for sure what the totality of consequence will be, or being fundamentally unable to know if the risks taken are worth the cost. I don't even care about the science behind it (which is dumb). Knowing the cure would/wouldn't work sucks shit and is a boring lame framing of the narrative. Not knowing adds a hefty ambiguity and weight to the choices made. People making decisions, or committing to causes, without ever fully knowing for sure how subsequent events will transpire, is literally how life works is is the ultimate fuel and weight behind our personal journey through guilt and accountability.  SirKai Member Dec 28, 2017 10,181 Washington Risev said: I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot. Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm not a Neil defender, but that's not a shortcoming of a writer; that's just an extremely basic aspect of storytelling to motivate the drama and create interesting circumstances. Pretty much no long-form story that depends on exceptional scenarios is going to be free of contrivance or convenience. Some stories obviously take it too far and it can make the narrative feel too arbitrarily authored and unnatural, and every individual person has their own threshold for how far they can suspend their disbelief, but the willingness to trust writers by suspending our disbelief is what makes stories strong and effective, and a writer depending on their audience to be able to do that, at least to some extent, is not a weakness.  Altairre Member Oct 25, 2017 5,211 Risev said: With all due respect to Niel, but that'a bullshit lmao. He also said the exact same thing about Ellie forgiving Joel / knowing he killed the fireflies at the end of the first game just a month or so before the release of Part 2 which gives a clear answer and renders any other interpretation invalid Click to expand... Click to shrink... It doesn't really matter what he says because within the text there clearly is ambiguity and there is basically no way to retcon that away. Considering their situation, what the audio logs say and the state of the world it's definitely a long shot but it's also THE long shot. Risev said: I'd say this is Neil's biggest shortcoming as a writer and is worth criticizing: wanting you to make leaps and just skip through some plot holes for the service of the plot. Uncharted 4 also contains an extremely glaring plot hole that you have to gloss over to enjoy the story Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm not sure that the situation in LoU qualifies as a plot hole tbh.   Jubern Member Oct 25, 2017 1,597 Mauricio_Magus said: Death of the author applies here, I don't really care what he has to say if it's not in the original game/text. It's clearly supposed to be ambiguous and it's staying that way for me. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Exactly where I stand. Why he would want to clarify/comment on this so long after the fact leaves me dumbfounded.   FTF Member Oct 28, 2017 33,203 New York EatChildren said: Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo The story is infinitely more interesting and thought provoking, particularly in regards to character motivations, actions, and subsequent consequences, when the climax of the first game is viewed through the lens of the unknown; that people and groups make decisions and take actions, sometimes decisively and recklessly, without knowing for sure what the totality of consequence will be, or being fundamentally unable to know if the risks taken are worth the cost. I don't even care about the science behind it (which is dumb). Knowing the cure would/wouldn't work sucks shit and is a boring lame framing of the narrative. Not knowing adds a hefty ambiguity and weight to the choices made. People making decisions, or committing to causes, without ever fully knowing for sure how subsequent events will transpire, is literally how life works is is the ultimate fuel and weight behind our personal journey through guilt and accountability. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, this is what I meant and said sooo much better lol.   Cantaim Member Oct 25, 2017 35,072 The Stussining I always thought it would have worked as well. The entire game is building up to Joel facing the Trolley problem but with Ellie on the track. I don't think it really has any teeth if you just say killing Ellie doesn't do anything.   Crossing Eden Member Oct 26, 2017 58,520 Kenzodielocke said: It's kind of moot if you make this so technichal Click to expand... Click to shrink... You aren't supposed to because it's not real life Cantaim said: I always thought it would have worked as well. The entire game is building up to Joel facing the Trolley problem but with Ellie on the track. I don't think it really has any teeth if you just say killing Ellie doesn't do anything. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's funny because literally nothing about the story ever implies that the cure wouldn't work. For every single thing that gets addressed in a "grounded" way that particular tidbit has never been more than people using it as an excuse to justify/lighten the severity of Joel's actions. "Eh does it really matter that he shot up the hospital at the end of the day? Not like the cure would've worked anyways. I, the player/Joel did nothing wrong."  TacoSupreme Member Jul 26, 2019 2,092 SirKai said: I'm not a Neil defender, but that's not a shortcoming of a writer; that's just an extremely basic aspect of storytelling to motivate the drama and create interesting circumstances. Pretty much no long-form story that depends on exceptional scenarios is going to be free of contrivance or convenience. Some stories obviously take it too far and it can make the narrative feel too arbitrarily authored and unnatural, and every individual person has their own threshold for how far they can suspend their disbelief, but the willingness to trust writers by suspending our disbelief is what makes stories strong and effective, and a writer depending on their audience to be able to do that, at least to some extent, is not a weakness. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with this. It's not about suspending disbelief, it's about the game deliberately making the whole situation with the Fireflies seem sketchy. I genuinely spit out my drink and started laughing when it was revealed that they were going to instantly take the precious immune person and dissect her almost immediately after getting their hands on her. This goes beyond contrivance or convenience and into the realm of deliberately misleading the player into thinking there's ambiguity. All it would have taken is something denoting the passage of time prior to wanting to scoop out her brain and it would have been fine. It's not about suspending disbelief, it's about making unneeded decisions that mislead the player.  GMM Member Oct 27, 2017 5,797 If they really would have made a cure or not kinda doesn't matter in the context of the story, it's about how Joel put himself over the needs of the world. Everyone out there trying to survive would agree that Ellie's sacrifice would be worth restoring some semblance of peace to the world even if it wasn't a safe bet, Ellie herself would have wanted to save the world but Joel made that choice for her. It's all about Joel being the selfish person he is, he chose himself over everyone else.  Terbinator Member Oct 29, 2017 13,379 Honestly don't think the cure being viable or not matters at all. Joel makes the decision to save Ellie to save his second daughter. It's really not that deep and you also have no agency over this in the game. Whether that's the moral thing to do on the promise of a cure is an open question.  MrKlaw Member Oct 25, 2017 36,871 Reality doesn't matter (I disagree - they are barely properly staffed, they've never done this before or seen it before so its a hail mary at best etc etc all the discussion) but from a story perspective it makes sense that at least Joel believes its possible to have a cure - it makes the narrative and his reaction stronger, and the 'my life could have meant something' from Ellie's side stronger to create that necessary tension. But I don't like it.  Sinah Member Jun 2, 2022 1,254 I mean yeah so? Honestly personally i don't think it even really matters at that point world was already in a absolute shit state with literal cannibal and murderers everywhere and the infected can not be cured so you still have millions of monsters running around everywhere ripping ppl apart. There was nothing worth saving even if they did manage to make a cure and actually distribute it which is definitely the bigger problem here considering the state the Fireflys where in and the logistics involved.  Last edited: Today at 3:24 AM Vyse One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 1,641 Joel might have pressed a 100% cure button that kills his daughter but even a 1% chance it was a hail mary by sketchy people guaranteed the slaughter.   Agni Kai Member Nov 2, 2017 10,001 None of you (and I do mean none of you) would let your child die to save other people. This new piece of information changes nothing. Joel could've never know.  Crossing Eden Member Oct 26, 2017 58,520 Agni Kai said: None of you (and I do mean none of you) would let your child die to save other people. This new piece of information changes nothing. Joel could've never know. Click to expand... Click to shrink... He never once doubted that it would work though.  
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  • The Mies Crown Hall Americas Prize announces Thaden School as its 2025 winner

    The Mies Crown Hall Americas Prizeawarded the Thaden School in its fifth iteration. The 30-acre middle and high school campus in Bentonville, Arkansas, was a collective design effort by Marlon Blackwell Architects, EskewDumezRipple, and Andropogon Associates.
    The project pulls directly from the rural vernacular of the Ozark region. Thaden School beat out steep competition for the prize, including an aquarium in Mexico by Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO, a veterinary office in Argentina, an expansive park in Mexico, and an old pumphouse that was turned into apartments in Canada.

    The biennial MCHAP prize “acknowledges the best built works of architecture in the Americas.” It is awarded by the Illinois Institute of TechnologyCollege of Architecture and announced at a benefit held in Crown Hall, the Ludwig Mies van der Rohe–designed building on the IIT campus.
    Over 250 submissions were received for nomination to the 2025 Americas Prize. These were whittled down to the five finalists. As in past years, the jury visited each of the finalist projects and met with the designers and clients before settling on the Thaden School as the winning project.
    All of the new campus buildings are connected with the landscape.The 2025 MCHAP Americas Prize jury was headed by industry professionals, hailing from across the Americas. It was chaired by Maurice Cox, former Commissioner of the City of Chicago Department of Planning and Development.
    Cox was joined by Giovanna Borasi, director, Canadian Centre for Architecture; Gregg Pasquarelli, founding principal, SHoP Architects; Mauricio Rocha, founder, Taller | Mauricio Rocha, and the 2023 Americas Prize recipient; and Sofia von Ellrichshausen, founding partner of Chilean firm Pezo von Ellrichshausen.

    MCHAP Director Dirk Denison remarked about visiting the projects and complimented each of the five finalists. “Traveling together, I witnessed firsthand the incredible insights each jury member brought to these five standard-setting works,” he said. “All the finalists emerged organically from needs and demands of their immediate contexts, with ingenuity and a synergy of creativity between the client and designer—a synergy that is the hallmark of so many MCHAP finalists.”
    The cafeteria at Thaden School is one of the many spaces faced with a large window overlooking the grassy campus.Porches and screened passageways are among many architectural features that recall local vernacular.The jury praised Thaden School for its rootedness to site and context. Connection with the outdoors is a core part of the school’s curriculum; the design team tapped into this with gabled structures that recall barn buildings, through screened porches, and attention to the landscape and grounds.

    “The building’s character shapes a campus steeped in the rural culture of its place—the barn, the porch, and the long and low farm buildings are artfully assembled into a new academical village that powerfully interprets the pedagogical mission of ‘youth learning by doing,’” the jury collectively shared in a statement.
    The campus comprises a number of buildings, each with a unique program, connected to one another via series of pathways. Among these is the Home Building, where communal spaces were located: the dining hall, library, bookstore, and lounges.
    The buildings have low-lying profiles reminiscent of agricultural buildings as well as distinct, angular roof shapes as seen on the Bike Barn, the Arts and Administration Building, Performance Building, and others. Open-air passageways, garage-style doors, and large spans of glazing cement the connection with the rural surroundings.
    The low-lying buildings with gabled rooflines recall traditional barn architecture.“The collaborative effort of the design teams read through this powerful composition,” the jury commented. “Space is both contained and open-ended, inviting the public to enter into the center of student life. The threshold between outdoor and indoor is made of outward-facing porches, covered passageways, and outdoor rooms. This flexible composition of the campus encourages learning, recreation, farming, and civic gathering.”
    Several of the Thaden School buildings have been recognized in AN’s Best of Design awards program in the education category. In 2021 EskewDumezRipple received recognition for its work on the Home Building. Marlon Blackwell was similarly applauded in 2020 for its design for Bike Barn, and then again in 2024 for the Performance Building.
    Last year, Taller | Mauricio Rocha won the MCHAP for Anahuacalli Museum. Other past recipients include, in 2014, Grace Farms by SANAA in New Canaan, Connecticut.
    #mies #crown #hall #americas #prize
    The Mies Crown Hall Americas Prize announces Thaden School as its 2025 winner
    The Mies Crown Hall Americas Prizeawarded the Thaden School in its fifth iteration. The 30-acre middle and high school campus in Bentonville, Arkansas, was a collective design effort by Marlon Blackwell Architects, EskewDumezRipple, and Andropogon Associates. The project pulls directly from the rural vernacular of the Ozark region. Thaden School beat out steep competition for the prize, including an aquarium in Mexico by Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO, a veterinary office in Argentina, an expansive park in Mexico, and an old pumphouse that was turned into apartments in Canada. The biennial MCHAP prize “acknowledges the best built works of architecture in the Americas.” It is awarded by the Illinois Institute of TechnologyCollege of Architecture and announced at a benefit held in Crown Hall, the Ludwig Mies van der Rohe–designed building on the IIT campus. Over 250 submissions were received for nomination to the 2025 Americas Prize. These were whittled down to the five finalists. As in past years, the jury visited each of the finalist projects and met with the designers and clients before settling on the Thaden School as the winning project. All of the new campus buildings are connected with the landscape.The 2025 MCHAP Americas Prize jury was headed by industry professionals, hailing from across the Americas. It was chaired by Maurice Cox, former Commissioner of the City of Chicago Department of Planning and Development. Cox was joined by Giovanna Borasi, director, Canadian Centre for Architecture; Gregg Pasquarelli, founding principal, SHoP Architects; Mauricio Rocha, founder, Taller | Mauricio Rocha, and the 2023 Americas Prize recipient; and Sofia von Ellrichshausen, founding partner of Chilean firm Pezo von Ellrichshausen. MCHAP Director Dirk Denison remarked about visiting the projects and complimented each of the five finalists. “Traveling together, I witnessed firsthand the incredible insights each jury member brought to these five standard-setting works,” he said. “All the finalists emerged organically from needs and demands of their immediate contexts, with ingenuity and a synergy of creativity between the client and designer—a synergy that is the hallmark of so many MCHAP finalists.” The cafeteria at Thaden School is one of the many spaces faced with a large window overlooking the grassy campus.Porches and screened passageways are among many architectural features that recall local vernacular.The jury praised Thaden School for its rootedness to site and context. Connection with the outdoors is a core part of the school’s curriculum; the design team tapped into this with gabled structures that recall barn buildings, through screened porches, and attention to the landscape and grounds. “The building’s character shapes a campus steeped in the rural culture of its place—the barn, the porch, and the long and low farm buildings are artfully assembled into a new academical village that powerfully interprets the pedagogical mission of ‘youth learning by doing,’” the jury collectively shared in a statement. The campus comprises a number of buildings, each with a unique program, connected to one another via series of pathways. Among these is the Home Building, where communal spaces were located: the dining hall, library, bookstore, and lounges. The buildings have low-lying profiles reminiscent of agricultural buildings as well as distinct, angular roof shapes as seen on the Bike Barn, the Arts and Administration Building, Performance Building, and others. Open-air passageways, garage-style doors, and large spans of glazing cement the connection with the rural surroundings. The low-lying buildings with gabled rooflines recall traditional barn architecture.“The collaborative effort of the design teams read through this powerful composition,” the jury commented. “Space is both contained and open-ended, inviting the public to enter into the center of student life. The threshold between outdoor and indoor is made of outward-facing porches, covered passageways, and outdoor rooms. This flexible composition of the campus encourages learning, recreation, farming, and civic gathering.” Several of the Thaden School buildings have been recognized in AN’s Best of Design awards program in the education category. In 2021 EskewDumezRipple received recognition for its work on the Home Building. Marlon Blackwell was similarly applauded in 2020 for its design for Bike Barn, and then again in 2024 for the Performance Building. Last year, Taller | Mauricio Rocha won the MCHAP for Anahuacalli Museum. Other past recipients include, in 2014, Grace Farms by SANAA in New Canaan, Connecticut. #mies #crown #hall #americas #prize
    WWW.ARCHPAPER.COM
    The Mies Crown Hall Americas Prize announces Thaden School as its 2025 winner
    The Mies Crown Hall Americas Prize (MCHAP) awarded the Thaden School in its fifth iteration. The 30-acre middle and high school campus in Bentonville, Arkansas, was a collective design effort by Marlon Blackwell Architects, EskewDumezRipple, and Andropogon Associates. The project pulls directly from the rural vernacular of the Ozark region. Thaden School beat out steep competition for the prize, including an aquarium in Mexico by Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO, a veterinary office in Argentina, an expansive park in Mexico, and an old pumphouse that was turned into apartments in Canada. The biennial MCHAP prize “acknowledges the best built works of architecture in the Americas.” It is awarded by the Illinois Institute of Technology (IIT) College of Architecture and announced at a benefit held in Crown Hall, the Ludwig Mies van der Rohe–designed building on the IIT campus. Over 250 submissions were received for nomination to the 2025 Americas Prize. These were whittled down to the five finalists. As in past years, the jury visited each of the finalist projects and met with the designers and clients before settling on the Thaden School as the winning project. All of the new campus buildings are connected with the landscape. (Tim Hursley) The 2025 MCHAP Americas Prize jury was headed by industry professionals, hailing from across the Americas. It was chaired by Maurice Cox, former Commissioner of the City of Chicago Department of Planning and Development. Cox was joined by Giovanna Borasi, director, Canadian Centre for Architecture; Gregg Pasquarelli, founding principal, SHoP Architects; Mauricio Rocha, founder, Taller | Mauricio Rocha, and the 2023 Americas Prize recipient; and Sofia von Ellrichshausen, founding partner of Chilean firm Pezo von Ellrichshausen. MCHAP Director Dirk Denison remarked about visiting the projects and complimented each of the five finalists. “Traveling together, I witnessed firsthand the incredible insights each jury member brought to these five standard-setting works,” he said. “All the finalists emerged organically from needs and demands of their immediate contexts, with ingenuity and a synergy of creativity between the client and designer—a synergy that is the hallmark of so many MCHAP finalists.” The cafeteria at Thaden School is one of the many spaces faced with a large window overlooking the grassy campus. (Tim Hursley) Porches and screened passageways are among many architectural features that recall local vernacular. (Tim Hursley) The jury praised Thaden School for its rootedness to site and context. Connection with the outdoors is a core part of the school’s curriculum; the design team tapped into this with gabled structures that recall barn buildings, through screened porches, and attention to the landscape and grounds. “The building’s character shapes a campus steeped in the rural culture of its place—the barn, the porch, and the long and low farm buildings are artfully assembled into a new academical village that powerfully interprets the pedagogical mission of ‘youth learning by doing,’” the jury collectively shared in a statement. The campus comprises a number of buildings, each with a unique program, connected to one another via series of pathways. Among these is the Home Building, where communal spaces were located: the dining hall, library, bookstore, and lounges. The buildings have low-lying profiles reminiscent of agricultural buildings as well as distinct, angular roof shapes as seen on the Bike Barn, the Arts and Administration Building, Performance Building, and others. Open-air passageways, garage-style doors, and large spans of glazing cement the connection with the rural surroundings. The low-lying buildings with gabled rooflines recall traditional barn architecture. (Tim Hursley) “The collaborative effort of the design teams read through this powerful composition,” the jury commented. “Space is both contained and open-ended, inviting the public to enter into the center of student life. The threshold between outdoor and indoor is made of outward-facing porches, covered passageways, and outdoor rooms. This flexible composition of the campus encourages learning, recreation, farming, and civic gathering.” Several of the Thaden School buildings have been recognized in AN’s Best of Design awards program in the education category. In 2021 EskewDumezRipple received recognition for its work on the Home Building. Marlon Blackwell was similarly applauded in 2020 for its design for Bike Barn, and then again in 2024 for the Performance Building. Last year, Taller | Mauricio Rocha won the MCHAP for Anahuacalli Museum. Other past recipients include, in 2014, Grace Farms by SANAA in New Canaan, Connecticut.
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  • [IGN] EA Pushes Full Return to Office, Effectively Ends Remote Hiring

    --R
    Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    15,503

    Electronic Arts has announced to employees that it will be ending its remote working policies permanently, and implementing a full return to office.

    In an email sent to employees today viewed by IGN, CEO Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." He then went on to broadly outline that "hybrid work" would now be defined as a "minimum of three days a week in your local office," and that "offsite local roles" would be gradually phased out.
    Click to expand...
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    In a follow-up email from EA Entertainment president, Laura Miele, also viewed by IGN, she clarified further details, describing the company as moving from "a decentralized approach to a globally consistent, enterprise-wide work model":

    Click to expand...
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    These changes will not take effect immediately. Employees should continue working as directed by your Business Unit until further notice, regardless of where you live.
    Work model transitions will come with a minimum 12-week notice period before any changes are implemented. The timing will vary by location and will be communicated locally with plenty of notice.
    Hybrid work will mean working from your local office at least three days per week–this aligns with what's outlined in Andrew's EA Action.
    We are introducing a new 30-mile/48-km radius around EA locations.
    What this means:
    Employees who live within 30-miles/48-km of an EA location will transition to a Hybrid work model.
    Employees who live outside the 30-mile/48-km radius will be considered remote unless their role is designated as On Site or Hybrid.

    We will also sunset the Offsite Local work model. Depending on your location, this transition may take 3 to 24 months.
    Any work model exception and future Remote hires will require a CEO Direct's /my approval.

    Several sources within EA speaking to IGN anonymously said that employees were upset and confused, with some employees sharing hours-long commutes they were now being expected to make, or expressing concerns regarding childcare or personal medical conditions that had benefited from remote work. Others, classified as remote and outside the 30-mile range, expressed concern for what would happen to their roles if they were unwilling or unable to move closer to an office long-term. Two sources explained to IGN that per the breakdown sent by Miele, existing remote workers would have their "exemptions" to return to office "sunset" sometime in the next 3 to 24 months.

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    EA Pushes Full Return to Office, Effectively Ends Remote Hiring - IGN

    Electronic Arts has announced to employees that it will be ending its remote working policies permanently, and implementing a full return to office.

    www.ign.com

     

    Lirael
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    16,623

    So, mass layoffs incoming then.
     

    ASleepingMonkey
    The Fallen

    Oct 26, 2017

    4,575

    Iowa

    3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol
     

    Star-Lord
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    7,941

    That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah
     

    ket
    Member

    Jul 27, 2018

    15,035

    worthless fucking management
     

    Capricorn
    "This guy are sick"
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    902

    Fuck EA and any other company that pulls this kind of shit.
     

    Last edited: Today at 6:41 PM

    MANTRA
    Member

    Feb 21, 2024

    1,093

    More layoffs without doing the laying off.
     

    TeenageFBI
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    11,313

    "Sunset" is just the worst verb.
     

    Skel1ingt0n
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    11,466

    Lirael said:

    So, mass layoffs incoming then.

    Click to expand...
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    Yep, this is what you should take from this.

    Our company went from- "you can work wherever and we're definitely keeping that way" to "if you live within 45 miles and 60 min of the office, you need to come in 3-4 days a week" all in a matter of two months.

    Of course some people say "eff that," which is what they want. It's a silent layoff. 

    super-famicom
    Avenger

    Oct 26, 2017

    30,398

    Boooo
     

    Azzie
    Member

    Dec 1, 2024

    673

    Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players."

    Click to expand...
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    Says the man who only has 1 answer to everything "live service microtransactions". 

    Skel1ingt0n
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    11,466

    ASleepingMonkey said:

    3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol

    Click to expand...
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    Lines up nicely for when we'll get our next tidbit of Mass Effect information. 

    NinjaScooter
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    60,606

    Star-Lord said:

    That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah

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    middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something. 

    loco
    Member

    Jan 6, 2021

    8,548

    Wow I know people at EA that work from states that have no official offices. That really sucks
     

    Khanimus
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    46,384

    Greater Vancouver


     

    Kill3r7
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    28,969

    Skel1ingt0n said:

    Yep, this is what you should take from this.

    Our company went from- "you can work wherever and we're definitely keeping that way" to "if you live within 45 miles and 60 min of the office, you need to come in 3-4 days a week" all in a matter of two months.

    Of course some people say "eff that," which is what they want. It's a silent layoff.
    Click to expand...
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    The economy isn't exactly booming right now but your analysis is spot on. 

    WildArms
    Member

    Apr 30, 2022

    2,810

    This seems to be a nation wide thing. I'm Canadian and just my other week my current employer pushed an email out stating the same thing. Then, just the other day, my wife's company did the same thing.

    Man... Glad my new company I'll be working for is fully remote. I absolutely hate commuting... I already work 12 hour days on top of commuting 2 hours. At least it's only 3 days a week and my last day is the Friday after this Friday. 

    Cess007
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    15,444

    B.C., Mexico

    CEO Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players."

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    "I cannot wait to see all this incredible creative pitches and be the first one to ask them "how do you plan to include microtransactions in this?"
     

    HardRojo
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    28,813

    Peru

    NinjaScooter said:

    middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something.

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    Yeah, I only go to the office once a weekand it's only upper management that seems to be going a few days a week. They got time to plan all the boring shit like presentations with dances, sketches and all that crap.
     

    lone_stranger
    Member

    Aug 24, 2018

    469

    I don't view hybrid the same as a "full return to office", but it does suck that people who were exclusively remote won't have the option anymore. I wish I knew how common full-time remote work was for the big publishers. For some reason I thought hybrid was the typical approach already.
     

    Tommy Showbiz
    Member

    Jul 20, 2022

    3,647

    I think it was Jason Schreier who said that Respawn being able to fully coalesce around remote work was a huge part of why that studio had been so successful in recent years. So uh, great job with that EA.
     

    ket
    Member

    Jul 27, 2018

    15,035

    management loves the idea of keeping an eye on their employees even if that's pointless. they love having control.
     

    Twister
    Member

    Feb 11, 2019

    6,622

    Return to office is bullshit.

    EA employees, resist and do not comply.

    Any job that can be done at home should be allowed to be done at home, full stop, period. This is a control tactic. Don't let these greedy pieces of shit take away your freedom and happiness. Stop clogging the roads and leave that space for emergency vehicles and people with jobs who cannot be remote. Stop contributing to carbon emissions with thousands of extra cars on the road. Stop building giant office parks that could be used for green spaces or more housing. Resist this bullshit. Make the CEOs sorry they ever even tried. 

    vixolus
    Prophet of Truth
    Member

    Sep 22, 2020

    70,551

    Companies doing their best to try and put the toothpaste back in the tube
     

    Freezasaurus
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    58,746

    What is it with oldheads and these office mandates? It's not the 1950s anymore, bozos.
     

    Juryvicious
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    8,129

    Lirael said:

    So, mass layoffs incoming then.

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    The cynic in me agrees, unfortunately, as this was my first thought as well. Most of the employee pro-progress in recent years has evaporated.

    And EA are not alone, far from it. 

    JRedCX
    Member

    Nov 10, 2020

    1,242

    Soft layoff...
     

    FrostweaveBandage
    Unshakable Resolve
    Member

    Sep 27, 2019

    9,813

    Star-Lord said:

    That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah

    Click to expand...
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    The thing that never made sense to me is how these multinational companies ever operated if they believe everyone being in the same place was critical to business success.
     

    Mauricio_Magus
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    15,772

    So they want people to quit, got it.
     

    ghibli99
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    20,468

    What is "offsite local"? Is that the "within 30 miles" group so they can force the hybrid model on them?
     

    TrojanAg
    Unshakable Resolve
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    4,498

    Management loves to act like working on-site will create such an efficient workplace but it's definitely the opposite. Traveling to and from work alone is just a massive waste of time, and you would think that they would've learned their lesson by now. I guess they just have to justify their existence and micromanage/pester you in person.
     

    medinaria
    Member

    Oct 30, 2017

    2,912

    why do people come up with useless bespoke terminology for shit

    like what is "offsite local", is this the same as remote, or does this mean like "person who works remote but within commute range of an office"

    if they're aiming to distinguish between "people who we think could work in-person and therefore will be" and "people who can't and therefore don't have to" that's at least not the dumbest thing I've ever seen? it's still pretty dumb but like, "all remote people worldwide must report to their nearest branch" is a bit absurd when you don't have any US offices east of texas lol 

    nsilvias
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    29,956

    its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it.
     

    Vourlis
    Member

    Aug 14, 2022

    5,814

    United States

    What's the fucking difference if you have 38 office locations worldwide...

    God forbid people like to work and be equally productive beyond a cubicle.

    Just give people the option... 

    Last edited: Today at 6:57 PM

    Tunesmith
    Fraud & Player Security
    Verified

    Oct 25, 2017

    2,195

    ASleepingMonkey said:

    3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol

    Click to expand...
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    some locations can accomodate influx of onsite staff sooner than others.
     

    Twister
    Member

    Feb 11, 2019

    6,622

    nsilvias said:

    its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it.

    Click to expand...
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    Eventually they'll have to. This is the old heads clinging to their last grasp of power before offices become a thing of the past. Remote work will be the norm for office jobs within the next 10-15 years
     

    DontHateTheBacon
    Unshakable Resolve
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    14,411

    Soft layoffs huh
     

    skyappl
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    337

    As others have noted, this is a layoff without triggering related laws or having to pay unemployment insurance.
     

    Aztechnology
    Community Resettler
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    15,382

    nsilvias said:

    its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it.

    Click to expand...
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    Actually they're doing this specifically as a tactic for wage suppression and stuff like that. When you make jobs scarcethey get to put downwards pressure on wages etc. All the shit right now including AI is just that.

    You can't have labor feeling like they have any power 

    Supreme Leader Galahad
    ▲ Legend ▲
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    2,847

    Brazil

    Wraps for EA if Battlefield fails to deliver.
     

    Duffking
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    6,686

    EA announce their intention to be a less enticing workplace than their competitors.
     

    Qikz
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    13,739

    NinjaScooter said:

    middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something.

    Click to expand...
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    It's also hilarious because until now upper management were working from home all the time and will continue to once they've forced everyone back in the office. They don't want us to have that benefit- its 100% fuck you got mine.

    If someone has proven they can work from home perfectly well then if you force them back into an office you're an asshole imo. If someones doing a bad job working remotely fine, force them back into the office and test them but punishing everyone is shitty. 

    klauskpm
    ▲ Legend ▲
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    3,836

    Brazil

    This to me is 2 things. As others said, it is to have people do the layoff themselves. And second, it is because it is becoming more and more common, so people have less options to go to. It sucks.

    And it sucks even more because it is not even about performance or quality. It is about control. If it was about performance and quality, it would be optional. So people who knows they perform better, or prefer to, could go on-site.

    If only the people who ask others to be professionals would also treat others as adults and professionals. 

    Ambient
    Member

    Dec 23, 2017

    9,258

    Brace for layoffs
     

    Ensorcell
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    7,405

    They almost always pull these back when they see the results and/or they are done with workforce reduction no matter the industry. They won't be honest because they don't want to pay severance. All it does it crater employee engagement and they know it. Slimeballs.
     

    BertChintus
    Member

    Dec 18, 2024

    261

    klauskpm said:

    This to me is 2 things. As others said, it is to have people do the layoff themselves. And second, it is because it is becoming more and more common, so people have less options to go to. It sucks.

    And it sucks even more because it is not even about performance or quality. It is about control. If it was about performance and quality, it would be optional. So people who knows they perform better, or prefer to, could go on-site.

    If only the people who ask others to be professionals would also treat others as adults and professionals.
    Click to expand...
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    On some level, it is kinda about performance. Haven't their games been underperforming lately? 

    Mesoian
    ▲ Legend ▲
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    31,655

    Lirael said:

    So, mass layoffs incoming then.

    Click to expand...
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    Yup.

    The bigger joke is that in 12 months they'll open up remote work again because no one wants to move to Redwood City. 

    BassForever
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    31,607

    CT

    Ensorcell said:

    They almost always pull these back when they see the results and/or they are done with workforce reduction no matter the industry. They won't be honest because they don't want to pay severance. All it does it crater employee engagement and they know it. Slimeballs.

    Click to expand...
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    Yep, cause ultimately if a high performing employee is too far away and/or doesn't want to fully commit to working in office, management will look the other way.

    Mesoian said:

    Yup.

    The bigger joke is that in 12 months they'll open up remote work again because no one wants to move to Redwood City.
    Click to expand...
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    Or look to outsource work to other countries. Nothing says "in office creativity" like being on a teams call with another team half way around the world.
     

    HockeyBird
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    13,757

    Knowing employees are being forced back into the office definitely gives me the urge to spend money in Apex Legends.
     

    TheForsaken
    Member

    Jul 24, 2024

    420

    Very similar to what my tech company did just recently as well.
     
    #ign #pushes #full #return #office
    [IGN] EA Pushes Full Return to Office, Effectively Ends Remote Hiring
    --R Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer Member Oct 25, 2017 15,503 Electronic Arts has announced to employees that it will be ending its remote working policies permanently, and implementing a full return to office. In an email sent to employees today viewed by IGN, CEO Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." He then went on to broadly outline that "hybrid work" would now be defined as a "minimum of three days a week in your local office," and that "offsite local roles" would be gradually phased out. Click to expand... Click to shrink... In a follow-up email from EA Entertainment president, Laura Miele, also viewed by IGN, she clarified further details, describing the company as moving from "a decentralized approach to a globally consistent, enterprise-wide work model": Click to expand... Click to shrink... These changes will not take effect immediately. Employees should continue working as directed by your Business Unit until further notice, regardless of where you live. Work model transitions will come with a minimum 12-week notice period before any changes are implemented. The timing will vary by location and will be communicated locally with plenty of notice. Hybrid work will mean working from your local office at least three days per week–this aligns with what's outlined in Andrew's EA Action. We are introducing a new 30-mile/48-km radius around EA locations. What this means: Employees who live within 30-miles/48-km of an EA location will transition to a Hybrid work model. Employees who live outside the 30-mile/48-km radius will be considered remote unless their role is designated as On Site or Hybrid. We will also sunset the Offsite Local work model. Depending on your location, this transition may take 3 to 24 months. Any work model exception and future Remote hires will require a CEO Direct's /my approval. Several sources within EA speaking to IGN anonymously said that employees were upset and confused, with some employees sharing hours-long commutes they were now being expected to make, or expressing concerns regarding childcare or personal medical conditions that had benefited from remote work. Others, classified as remote and outside the 30-mile range, expressed concern for what would happen to their roles if they were unwilling or unable to move closer to an office long-term. Two sources explained to IGN that per the breakdown sent by Miele, existing remote workers would have their "exemptions" to return to office "sunset" sometime in the next 3 to 24 months. Click to expand... Click to shrink... EA Pushes Full Return to Office, Effectively Ends Remote Hiring - IGN Electronic Arts has announced to employees that it will be ending its remote working policies permanently, and implementing a full return to office. www.ign.com   Lirael Member Oct 27, 2017 16,623 So, mass layoffs incoming then.   ASleepingMonkey The Fallen Oct 26, 2017 4,575 Iowa 3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol   Star-Lord Member Oct 25, 2017 7,941 That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah   ket Member Jul 27, 2018 15,035 worthless fucking management   Capricorn "This guy are sick" Avenger Oct 25, 2017 902 Fuck EA and any other company that pulls this kind of shit.   Last edited: Today at 6:41 PM MANTRA Member Feb 21, 2024 1,093 More layoffs without doing the laying off.   TeenageFBI One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 11,313 "Sunset" is just the worst verb.   Skel1ingt0n Member Oct 28, 2017 11,466 Lirael said: So, mass layoffs incoming then. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yep, this is what you should take from this. Our company went from- "you can work wherever and we're definitely keeping that way" to "if you live within 45 miles and 60 min of the office, you need to come in 3-4 days a week" all in a matter of two months. Of course some people say "eff that," which is what they want. It's a silent layoff.  super-famicom Avenger Oct 26, 2017 30,398 Boooo   Azzie Member Dec 1, 2024 673 Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." Click to expand... Click to shrink... Says the man who only has 1 answer to everything "live service microtransactions".  Skel1ingt0n Member Oct 28, 2017 11,466 ASleepingMonkey said: 3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol Click to expand... Click to shrink... Lines up nicely for when we'll get our next tidbit of Mass Effect information.  NinjaScooter Member Oct 25, 2017 60,606 Star-Lord said: That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah Click to expand... Click to shrink... middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something.  loco Member Jan 6, 2021 8,548 Wow I know people at EA that work from states that have no official offices. That really sucks   Khanimus Avenger Oct 25, 2017 46,384 Greater Vancouver 🖕   Kill3r7 Member Oct 25, 2017 28,969 Skel1ingt0n said: Yep, this is what you should take from this. Our company went from- "you can work wherever and we're definitely keeping that way" to "if you live within 45 miles and 60 min of the office, you need to come in 3-4 days a week" all in a matter of two months. Of course some people say "eff that," which is what they want. It's a silent layoff. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The economy isn't exactly booming right now but your analysis is spot on.  WildArms Member Apr 30, 2022 2,810 This seems to be a nation wide thing. I'm Canadian and just my other week my current employer pushed an email out stating the same thing. Then, just the other day, my wife's company did the same thing. Man... Glad my new company I'll be working for is fully remote. I absolutely hate commuting... I already work 12 hour days on top of commuting 2 hours. At least it's only 3 days a week and my last day is the Friday after this Friday.  Cess007 Member Oct 27, 2017 15,444 B.C., Mexico CEO Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." Click to expand... Click to shrink... "I cannot wait to see all this incredible creative pitches and be the first one to ask them "how do you plan to include microtransactions in this?"   HardRojo One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 28,813 Peru NinjaScooter said: middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, I only go to the office once a weekand it's only upper management that seems to be going a few days a week. They got time to plan all the boring shit like presentations with dances, sketches and all that crap.   lone_stranger Member Aug 24, 2018 469 I don't view hybrid the same as a "full return to office", but it does suck that people who were exclusively remote won't have the option anymore. I wish I knew how common full-time remote work was for the big publishers. For some reason I thought hybrid was the typical approach already.   Tommy Showbiz Member Jul 20, 2022 3,647 I think it was Jason Schreier who said that Respawn being able to fully coalesce around remote work was a huge part of why that studio had been so successful in recent years. So uh, great job with that EA.   ket Member Jul 27, 2018 15,035 management loves the idea of keeping an eye on their employees even if that's pointless. they love having control.   Twister Member Feb 11, 2019 6,622 Return to office is bullshit. EA employees, resist and do not comply. Any job that can be done at home should be allowed to be done at home, full stop, period. This is a control tactic. Don't let these greedy pieces of shit take away your freedom and happiness. Stop clogging the roads and leave that space for emergency vehicles and people with jobs who cannot be remote. Stop contributing to carbon emissions with thousands of extra cars on the road. Stop building giant office parks that could be used for green spaces or more housing. Resist this bullshit. Make the CEOs sorry they ever even tried.  vixolus Prophet of Truth Member Sep 22, 2020 70,551 Companies doing their best to try and put the toothpaste back in the tube   Freezasaurus Member Oct 25, 2017 58,746 What is it with oldheads and these office mandates? It's not the 1950s anymore, bozos.   Juryvicious Member Oct 28, 2017 8,129 Lirael said: So, mass layoffs incoming then. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The cynic in me agrees, unfortunately, as this was my first thought as well. Most of the employee pro-progress in recent years has evaporated. And EA are not alone, far from it.  JRedCX Member Nov 10, 2020 1,242 Soft layoff...   FrostweaveBandage Unshakable Resolve Member Sep 27, 2019 9,813 Star-Lord said: That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah Click to expand... Click to shrink... The thing that never made sense to me is how these multinational companies ever operated if they believe everyone being in the same place was critical to business success.   Mauricio_Magus Member Oct 25, 2017 15,772 So they want people to quit, got it.   ghibli99 Member Oct 27, 2017 20,468 What is "offsite local"? Is that the "within 30 miles" group so they can force the hybrid model on them?   TrojanAg Unshakable Resolve Member Oct 25, 2017 4,498 Management loves to act like working on-site will create such an efficient workplace but it's definitely the opposite. Traveling to and from work alone is just a massive waste of time, and you would think that they would've learned their lesson by now. I guess they just have to justify their existence and micromanage/pester you in person.   medinaria Member Oct 30, 2017 2,912 why do people come up with useless bespoke terminology for shit like what is "offsite local", is this the same as remote, or does this mean like "person who works remote but within commute range of an office" if they're aiming to distinguish between "people who we think could work in-person and therefore will be" and "people who can't and therefore don't have to" that's at least not the dumbest thing I've ever seen? it's still pretty dumb but like, "all remote people worldwide must report to their nearest branch" is a bit absurd when you don't have any US offices east of texas lol  nsilvias Member Oct 25, 2017 29,956 its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it.   Vourlis Member Aug 14, 2022 5,814 United States What's the fucking difference if you have 38 office locations worldwide... God forbid people like to work and be equally productive beyond a cubicle. Just give people the option...  Last edited: Today at 6:57 PM Tunesmith Fraud & Player Security Verified Oct 25, 2017 2,195 ASleepingMonkey said: 3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol Click to expand... Click to shrink... some locations can accomodate influx of onsite staff sooner than others.   Twister Member Feb 11, 2019 6,622 nsilvias said: its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Eventually they'll have to. This is the old heads clinging to their last grasp of power before offices become a thing of the past. Remote work will be the norm for office jobs within the next 10-15 years   DontHateTheBacon Unshakable Resolve Member Oct 27, 2017 14,411 Soft layoffs huh   skyappl Member Oct 25, 2017 337 As others have noted, this is a layoff without triggering related laws or having to pay unemployment insurance.   Aztechnology Community Resettler Avenger Oct 25, 2017 15,382 nsilvias said: its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Actually they're doing this specifically as a tactic for wage suppression and stuff like that. When you make jobs scarcethey get to put downwards pressure on wages etc. All the shit right now including AI is just that. You can't have labor feeling like they have any power  Supreme Leader Galahad ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 27, 2017 2,847 Brazil Wraps for EA if Battlefield fails to deliver.   Duffking Member Oct 27, 2017 6,686 EA announce their intention to be a less enticing workplace than their competitors.   Qikz Member Oct 25, 2017 13,739 NinjaScooter said: middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's also hilarious because until now upper management were working from home all the time and will continue to once they've forced everyone back in the office. They don't want us to have that benefit- its 100% fuck you got mine. If someone has proven they can work from home perfectly well then if you force them back into an office you're an asshole imo. If someones doing a bad job working remotely fine, force them back into the office and test them but punishing everyone is shitty.  klauskpm ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 26, 2017 3,836 Brazil This to me is 2 things. As others said, it is to have people do the layoff themselves. And second, it is because it is becoming more and more common, so people have less options to go to. It sucks. And it sucks even more because it is not even about performance or quality. It is about control. If it was about performance and quality, it would be optional. So people who knows they perform better, or prefer to, could go on-site. If only the people who ask others to be professionals would also treat others as adults and professionals.  Ambient Member Dec 23, 2017 9,258 Brace for layoffs   Ensorcell Member Oct 27, 2017 7,405 They almost always pull these back when they see the results and/or they are done with workforce reduction no matter the industry. They won't be honest because they don't want to pay severance. All it does it crater employee engagement and they know it. Slimeballs.   BertChintus Member Dec 18, 2024 261 klauskpm said: This to me is 2 things. As others said, it is to have people do the layoff themselves. And second, it is because it is becoming more and more common, so people have less options to go to. It sucks. And it sucks even more because it is not even about performance or quality. It is about control. If it was about performance and quality, it would be optional. So people who knows they perform better, or prefer to, could go on-site. If only the people who ask others to be professionals would also treat others as adults and professionals. Click to expand... Click to shrink... On some level, it is kinda about performance. Haven't their games been underperforming lately?  Mesoian ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 28, 2017 31,655 Lirael said: So, mass layoffs incoming then. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yup. The bigger joke is that in 12 months they'll open up remote work again because no one wants to move to Redwood City.  BassForever One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 31,607 CT Ensorcell said: They almost always pull these back when they see the results and/or they are done with workforce reduction no matter the industry. They won't be honest because they don't want to pay severance. All it does it crater employee engagement and they know it. Slimeballs. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yep, cause ultimately if a high performing employee is too far away and/or doesn't want to fully commit to working in office, management will look the other way. Mesoian said: Yup. The bigger joke is that in 12 months they'll open up remote work again because no one wants to move to Redwood City. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Or look to outsource work to other countries. Nothing says "in office creativity" like being on a teams call with another team half way around the world.   HockeyBird Member Oct 27, 2017 13,757 Knowing employees are being forced back into the office definitely gives me the urge to spend money in Apex Legends.   TheForsaken Member Jul 24, 2024 420 Very similar to what my tech company did just recently as well.   #ign #pushes #full #return #office
    WWW.RESETERA.COM
    [IGN] EA Pushes Full Return to Office, Effectively Ends Remote Hiring
    --R Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer Member Oct 25, 2017 15,503 Electronic Arts has announced to employees that it will be ending its remote working policies permanently, and implementing a full return to office. In an email sent to employees today viewed by IGN, CEO Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." He then went on to broadly outline that "hybrid work" would now be defined as a "minimum of three days a week in your local office," and that "offsite local roles" would be gradually phased out. Click to expand... Click to shrink... In a follow-up email from EA Entertainment president, Laura Miele, also viewed by IGN, she clarified further details, describing the company as moving from "a decentralized approach to a globally consistent, enterprise-wide work model": Click to expand... Click to shrink... These changes will not take effect immediately. Employees should continue working as directed by your Business Unit until further notice, regardless of where you live. Work model transitions will come with a minimum 12-week notice period before any changes are implemented. The timing will vary by location and will be communicated locally with plenty of notice. Hybrid work will mean working from your local office at least three days per week–this aligns with what's outlined in Andrew's EA Action. We are introducing a new 30-mile/48-km radius around EA locations. What this means: Employees who live within 30-miles/48-km of an EA location will transition to a Hybrid work model. Employees who live outside the 30-mile/48-km radius will be considered remote unless their role is designated as On Site or Hybrid. We will also sunset the Offsite Local work model. Depending on your location, this transition may take 3 to 24 months. Any work model exception and future Remote hires will require a CEO Direct's /my approval. Several sources within EA speaking to IGN anonymously said that employees were upset and confused, with some employees sharing hours-long commutes they were now being expected to make, or expressing concerns regarding childcare or personal medical conditions that had benefited from remote work. Others, classified as remote and outside the 30-mile range, expressed concern for what would happen to their roles if they were unwilling or unable to move closer to an office long-term. Two sources explained to IGN that per the breakdown sent by Miele, existing remote workers would have their "exemptions" to return to office "sunset" sometime in the next 3 to 24 months. Click to expand... Click to shrink... EA Pushes Full Return to Office, Effectively Ends Remote Hiring - IGN Electronic Arts has announced to employees that it will be ending its remote working policies permanently, and implementing a full return to office. www.ign.com   Lirael Member Oct 27, 2017 16,623 So, mass layoffs incoming then.   ASleepingMonkey The Fallen Oct 26, 2017 4,575 Iowa 3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol   Star-Lord Member Oct 25, 2017 7,941 That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah   ket Member Jul 27, 2018 15,035 worthless fucking management   Capricorn "This guy are sick" Avenger Oct 25, 2017 902 Fuck EA and any other company that pulls this kind of shit.   Last edited: Today at 6:41 PM MANTRA Member Feb 21, 2024 1,093 More layoffs without doing the laying off.   TeenageFBI One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 11,313 "Sunset" is just the worst verb.   Skel1ingt0n Member Oct 28, 2017 11,466 Lirael said: So, mass layoffs incoming then. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yep, this is what you should take from this. Our company went from (for some roles) - "you can work wherever and we're definitely keeping that way" to "if you live within 45 miles and 60 min of the office, you need to come in 3-4 days a week" all in a matter of two months. Of course some people say "eff that," which is what they want. It's a silent layoff.  super-famicom Avenger Oct 26, 2017 30,398 Boooo   Azzie Member Dec 1, 2024 673 Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." Click to expand... Click to shrink... Says the man who only has 1 answer to everything "live service microtransactions".  Skel1ingt0n Member Oct 28, 2017 11,466 ASleepingMonkey said: 3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol Click to expand... Click to shrink... Lines up nicely for when we'll get our next tidbit of Mass Effect information.  NinjaScooter Member Oct 25, 2017 60,606 Star-Lord said: That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah Click to expand... Click to shrink... middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something.  loco Member Jan 6, 2021 8,548 Wow I know people at EA that work from states that have no official offices. That really sucks   Khanimus Avenger Oct 25, 2017 46,384 Greater Vancouver 🖕   Kill3r7 Member Oct 25, 2017 28,969 Skel1ingt0n said: Yep, this is what you should take from this. Our company went from (for some roles) - "you can work wherever and we're definitely keeping that way" to "if you live within 45 miles and 60 min of the office, you need to come in 3-4 days a week" all in a matter of two months. Of course some people say "eff that," which is what they want. It's a silent layoff. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The economy isn't exactly booming right now but your analysis is spot on.  WildArms Member Apr 30, 2022 2,810 This seems to be a nation wide thing. I'm Canadian and just my other week my current employer pushed an email out stating the same thing. Then, just the other day, my wife's company did the same thing. Man... Glad my new company I'll be working for is fully remote. I absolutely hate commuting... I already work 12 hour days on top of commuting 2 hours. At least it's only 3 days a week and my last day is the Friday after this Friday.  Cess007 Member Oct 27, 2017 15,444 B.C., Mexico CEO Andrew Wilson said that in-person work results in "a kinetic energy that fuels creativity, innovation, and connection, often resulting in unexpected breakthroughs that lead to incredible experiences for our players." Click to expand... Click to shrink... "I cannot wait to see all this incredible creative pitches and be the first one to ask them "how do you plan to include microtransactions in this?"   HardRojo One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 28,813 Peru NinjaScooter said: middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, I only go to the office once a week (didn't actually go this week) and it's only upper management that seems to be going a few days a week. They got time to plan all the boring shit like presentations with dances, sketches and all that crap.   lone_stranger Member Aug 24, 2018 469 I don't view hybrid the same as a "full return to office", but it does suck that people who were exclusively remote won't have the option anymore. I wish I knew how common full-time remote work was for the big publishers. For some reason I thought hybrid was the typical approach already.   Tommy Showbiz Member Jul 20, 2022 3,647 I think it was Jason Schreier who said that Respawn being able to fully coalesce around remote work was a huge part of why that studio had been so successful in recent years. So uh, great job with that EA.   ket Member Jul 27, 2018 15,035 management loves the idea of keeping an eye on their employees even if that's pointless. they love having control.   Twister Member Feb 11, 2019 6,622 Return to office is bullshit. EA employees, resist and do not comply. Any job that can be done at home should be allowed to be done at home, full stop, period. This is a control tactic. Don't let these greedy pieces of shit take away your freedom and happiness. Stop clogging the roads and leave that space for emergency vehicles and people with jobs who cannot be remote. Stop contributing to carbon emissions with thousands of extra cars on the road. Stop building giant office parks that could be used for green spaces or more housing. Resist this bullshit. Make the CEOs sorry they ever even tried.  vixolus Prophet of Truth Member Sep 22, 2020 70,551 Companies doing their best to try and put the toothpaste back in the tube   Freezasaurus Member Oct 25, 2017 58,746 What is it with oldheads and these office mandates? It's not the 1950s anymore, bozos.   Juryvicious Member Oct 28, 2017 8,129 Lirael said: So, mass layoffs incoming then. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The cynic in me agrees, unfortunately, as this was my first thought as well. Most of the employee pro-progress in recent years has evaporated. And EA are not alone, far from it.  JRedCX Member Nov 10, 2020 1,242 Soft layoff...   FrostweaveBandage Unshakable Resolve Member Sep 27, 2019 9,813 Star-Lord said: That fucking sucks, I don't understand how a job can be done for this many years remote / hybrid and they now decide nah Click to expand... Click to shrink... The thing that never made sense to me is how these multinational companies ever operated if they believe everyone being in the same place was critical to business success.   Mauricio_Magus Member Oct 25, 2017 15,772 So they want people to quit, got it.   ghibli99 Member Oct 27, 2017 20,468 What is "offsite local"? Is that the "within 30 miles" group so they can force the hybrid model on them?   TrojanAg Unshakable Resolve Member Oct 25, 2017 4,498 Management loves to act like working on-site will create such an efficient workplace but it's definitely the opposite. Traveling to and from work alone is just a massive waste of time, and you would think that they would've learned their lesson by now. I guess they just have to justify their existence and micromanage/pester you in person.   medinaria Member Oct 30, 2017 2,912 why do people come up with useless bespoke terminology for shit like what is "offsite local", is this the same as remote, or does this mean like "person who works remote but within commute range of an office" if they're aiming to distinguish between "people who we think could work in-person and therefore will be" and "people who can't and therefore don't have to" that's at least not the dumbest thing I've ever seen? it's still pretty dumb but like, "all remote people worldwide must report to their nearest branch" is a bit absurd when you don't have any US offices east of texas lol  nsilvias Member Oct 25, 2017 29,956 its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it.   Vourlis Member Aug 14, 2022 5,814 United States What's the fucking difference if you have 38 office locations worldwide... God forbid people like to work and be equally productive beyond a cubicle. Just give people the option...  Last edited: Today at 6:57 PM Tunesmith Fraud & Player Security Verified Oct 25, 2017 2,195 ASleepingMonkey said: 3 - 24 months is such an absurd window for that one point lol Click to expand... Click to shrink... some locations can accomodate influx of onsite staff sooner than others.   Twister Member Feb 11, 2019 6,622 nsilvias said: its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Eventually they'll have to. This is the old heads clinging to their last grasp of power before offices become a thing of the past. Remote work will be the norm for office jobs within the next 10-15 years   DontHateTheBacon Unshakable Resolve Member Oct 27, 2017 14,411 Soft layoffs huh   skyappl Member Oct 25, 2017 337 As others have noted, this is a layoff without triggering related laws or having to pay unemployment insurance.   Aztechnology Community Resettler Avenger Oct 25, 2017 15,382 nsilvias said: its funny how these companies could save a ton of money by cutting out middle management and a building and all the bills that come with it but they wont do it. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Actually they're doing this specifically as a tactic for wage suppression and stuff like that. When you make jobs scarce (layoffs are coming) they get to put downwards pressure on wages etc. All the shit right now including AI is just that. You can't have labor feeling like they have any power  Supreme Leader Galahad ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 27, 2017 2,847 Brazil Wraps for EA if Battlefield fails to deliver.   Duffking Member Oct 27, 2017 6,686 EA announce their intention to be a less enticing workplace than their competitors.   Qikz Member Oct 25, 2017 13,739 NinjaScooter said: middle and upper management have to look like they are doing something. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's also hilarious because until now upper management were working from home all the time and will continue to once they've forced everyone back in the office. They don't want us to have that benefit (us in the general sense) - its 100% fuck you got mine. If someone has proven they can work from home perfectly well then if you force them back into an office you're an asshole imo. If someones doing a bad job working remotely fine, force them back into the office and test them but punishing everyone is shitty.  klauskpm ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 26, 2017 3,836 Brazil This to me is 2 things. As others said, it is to have people do the layoff themselves. And second, it is because it is becoming more and more common, so people have less options to go to. It sucks. And it sucks even more because it is not even about performance or quality. It is about control. If it was about performance and quality, it would be optional. So people who knows they perform better, or prefer to, could go on-site. If only the people who ask others to be professionals would also treat others as adults and professionals.  Ambient Member Dec 23, 2017 9,258 Brace for layoffs   Ensorcell Member Oct 27, 2017 7,405 They almost always pull these back when they see the results and/or they are done with workforce reduction no matter the industry. They won't be honest because they don't want to pay severance. All it does it crater employee engagement and they know it. Slimeballs.   BertChintus Member Dec 18, 2024 261 klauskpm said: This to me is 2 things. As others said, it is to have people do the layoff themselves. And second, it is because it is becoming more and more common, so people have less options to go to. It sucks. And it sucks even more because it is not even about performance or quality. It is about control. If it was about performance and quality, it would be optional. So people who knows they perform better, or prefer to, could go on-site. If only the people who ask others to be professionals would also treat others as adults and professionals. Click to expand... Click to shrink... On some level, it is kinda about performance. Haven't their games been underperforming lately?  Mesoian ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 28, 2017 31,655 Lirael said: So, mass layoffs incoming then. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yup. The bigger joke is that in 12 months they'll open up remote work again because no one wants to move to Redwood City.  BassForever One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 31,607 CT Ensorcell said: They almost always pull these back when they see the results and/or they are done with workforce reduction no matter the industry. They won't be honest because they don't want to pay severance. All it does it crater employee engagement and they know it. Slimeballs. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yep, cause ultimately if a high performing employee is too far away and/or doesn't want to fully commit to working in office, management will look the other way. Mesoian said: Yup. The bigger joke is that in 12 months they'll open up remote work again because no one wants to move to Redwood City. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Or look to outsource work to other countries. Nothing says "in office creativity" like being on a teams call with another team half way around the world.   HockeyBird Member Oct 27, 2017 13,757 Knowing employees are being forced back into the office definitely gives me the urge to spend money in Apex Legends.   TheForsaken Member Jul 24, 2024 420 Very similar to what my tech company did just recently as well.  
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  • #333;">First Ever Pregnant Ichthyosaur from the Early Cretaceous Reveals Life in Prehistoric Seas
    During an excavation, amidst the Patagonian winds and hard rock, a fossil began to turn green.
    It was an unexpected reaction: the adhesive applied to protect the bones, fragile after millions of years beneath the ice, had interacted with plant matter trapped in the rock’s cracks.
    This greenish hue earned the fossil the nickname Fiona, like the ogre from Shrek.But Fionais much more than a ogre-themed name.
    It is the first complete ichthyosaur ever excavated in Chile and, even more remarkably, the only known pregnant female from the Hauterivian — a stage of the Early Cretaceous dating back 131 million years.
    Her skeleton, discovered at the edge of the Tyndall Glacier in Torres del Paine National Park — an area increasingly exposed by glacial retreat — belongs to the species Myobradypterygius hauthali, originally described in Argentina from fragmentary remains.The discovery, led by Judith Pardo-Pérez, a researcher at the University of Magallanes and the Cabo de Hornos International Center (CHIC), and published in the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, offers an unprecedented glimpse into ancient marine life — from how these majestic reptiles reproduced to how they adapted to oceans vastly different from those of today.An Ichthyosaur Maternity Ward in Patagonia(Image Courtesy of Irene Viscor)So far, 88 ichthyosaurs have been found on the Tyndall Glacier.
    Most of them are adults and newborns.
    Two key facts stand out: food was abundant, and no other predators were competing with them.Fiona, who measures nearly 13 feet long, is still encased in five blocks of rock.
    Despite the challenge, she was transported to a local clinic, where CT scans allowed researchers to study her skull and body.
    Her species was identified thanks to one of her fins.
    “There’s no other like it in the world,” says Pardo-Pérez.
    The limbs were remarkably elongated, suggesting this animal was built for long-distance swimming.Inside her, there were more surprises.
    One of them was her stomach contents, which revealed what may have been her last meal: tiny fish vertebrae.
    But the most striking find was a fetus, about 20 inches long, already in a position to be born.“We believe these animals came to Magallanes — the southern tip of Chilean Patagonia — from time to time to give birth, because it was a safe refuge,” Pardo-Pérez says.
    “We don't know how long they stayed, but we do know that mortality was high during the first few days of life.”One of the big unanswered questions is where they went next, as there are no records of Myobradypterygius hauthali, apart from a piece of fin found in Argentina.
    The most abundant remains come from southern Germany, but those date back to the Jurassic period, meaning they’re older.Palaeontologist Erin Maxwell suggests, “In many modern ecosystems, species migrate to higher latitudes during the summer to take advantage of seasonally abundant resources and then move to lower latitudes in winter to avoid harsh conditions,” she explains.
    “We believe Mesozoic marine reptiles may have followed similar seasonal patterns.”Sea Dragon GraveyardThe environment where Fiona was discovered — dubbed the "sea dragon graveyard" — also has much to reveal.According to geologist Matthew Malkowski of the University of Texas at Austin, the Hauterivian age is particularly intriguing because it coincided with major planetary changes: the breakup of continents, intense volcanic episodes, and phenomena known as "oceanic anoxic events," during which vast areas of the ocean were depleted of dissolved oxygen for hundreds of thousands of years.One such poorly understood event, the Pharaonic Anoxic Event, occurred around 131 million years ago, near the end of the Hauterivian, and still raises questions about its true impact on marine life.
    “We don't have a firm grasp of how significant these events were for marine vertebrates, and geological records like that of the Tyndall Glacier allow us to explore the relationship between life, the environment, and Earth’s past conditions,” Malkowski notes.Evolution of IchthyosaursReconstruction of Fiona.
    (Image Courtesy of Mauricio Álvarez)Don't be misled by their body shape.
    “Ichthyosaurs are not related to dolphins,” clarifies Pardo-Pérez.
    Although their hydrodynamic silhouettes may look nearly identical, the former were marine reptiles, while the latter are mammals.
    This resemblance results from a phenomenon known as convergent evolution: when species from different lineages develop similar anatomical features to adapt to the same environment.Ichthyosaurs evolved from terrestrial reptiles that, in response to ecological and climatic changes, began spending more time in the water until they fully adapted to a marine lifestyle.
    However, they retained traces of their land-dwelling ancestry, such as a pair of hind flippers — absent in dolphins — passed down from their walking forebears.
    They lived and thrived in prehistoric oceans for about 180 million years, giving them ample time to refine a highly specialized body: their forelimbs and hindlimbs transformed into flippers; they developed a crescent-shaped tail for propulsion, a dorsal fin for stability, and a streamlined body to reduce drag in the water.
    Remarkably, like whales and dolphins, “ichthyosaurs had a thick layer of blubber as insulation to maintain a higher body temperature than the surrounding seawater and gave birth to live young, which meant they didn’t need to leave the water to reproduce,” explains Maxwell.Whales and dolphins also descend from land-dwelling ancestors, but their transition happened over a comparatively short evolutionary timespan, especially when measured against the long reign of the ichthyosaurs.
    “Their evolution hasn't had as much time as that of ichthyosaurs,” notes Pardo-Pérez.
    “And yet, they look so similar.
    That’s the wonderful thing about evolution.”Read More: Did a Swimming Reptile Predate the Dinosaurs?Fossils on the Verge of DisappearanceOne of the key factors behind the remarkable preservation of the fossils found in the Tyndall Glacier is the way they were buried.
    According to Malkowski, Fiona and her contemporaries were either trapped or swiftly covered by underwater landslides and turbidity currents — geological processes that led to their sudden entombment.But the good fortune that protected them for millions of years may now be running out.
    As the glacier retreats, exposing fossils that were once unreachable, those same remains are now vulnerable to wind, rain, and freeze-thaw cycles, which crack the surrounding rock.
    As vegetation takes hold, roots accelerate erosion and eventually conceal the fossils once again.“While climate change has allowed these fossils to be studied, continued warming will also eventually lead to their loss,” Maxwell warns.
    In Fiona’s story, scientists find not only a record of ancient life, but also a warning etched in stone and bone: what time reveals, climate can reclaim.Article SourcesOur writers at Discovermagazine.com use peer-reviewed studies and high-quality sources for our articles, and our editors review for scientific accuracy and editorial standards.
    Review the sources used below for this article:María de los Ángeles Orfila is a science journalist based in Montevideo, Uruguay, focusing on long-form storytelling.
    Her work has appeared in Discover Magazine, Science, National Geographic, among other outlets, and in leading Uruguayan publications such as El País and El Observador.
    She was a fellow in the 2023 Sharon Dunwoody Mentoring Program by The Open Notebook and often explores the intersections of science, culture, and Latin American identity.
    #0066cc;">#first #ever #pregnant #ichthyosaur #from #the #early #cretaceous #reveals #life #prehistoric #seas #during #excavation #amidst #patagonian #winds #and #hard #rock #fossil #began #turn #greenit #was #unexpected #reaction #adhesive #applied #protect #bones #fragile #after #millions #years #beneath #ice #had #interacted #with #plant #matter #trapped #rocks #cracksthis #greenish #hue #earned #nickname #fiona #like #ogre #shrekbut #fionais #much #more #than #ogrethemed #nameit #complete #excavated #chile #even #remarkably #only #known #female #hauterivian #stage #dating #back #million #yearsher #skeleton #discovered #edge #tyndall #glacier #torres #del #paine #national #park #area #increasingly #exposed #glacial #retreat #belongs #species #myobradypterygius #hauthali #originally #described #argentina #fragmentary #remainsthe #discovery #led #judith #pardopérez #researcher #university #magallanes #cabo #hornos #international #center #chic #published #journal #vertebrate #paleontology #offers #unprecedented #glimpse #into #ancient #marine #how #these #majestic #reptiles #reproduced #they #adapted #oceans #vastly #different #those #todayan #maternity #ward #patagoniaimage #courtesy #irene #viscorso #far #ichthyosaurs #have #been #found #glaciermost #them #are #adults #newbornstwo #key #facts #stand #out #food #abundant #other #predators #were #competing #themfiona #who #measures #nearly #feet #long #still #encased #five #blocks #rockdespite #challenge #she #transported #local #clinic #where #scans #allowed #researchers #study #her #skull #bodyher #identified #thanks #one #finstheres #world #says #pardopérezthe #limbs #elongated #suggesting #this #animal #built #for #longdistance #swimminginside #there #surprisesone #stomach #contents #which #revealed #what #may #last #meal #tiny #fish #vertebraebut #most #striking #find #fetus #about #inches #already #position #bornwe #believe #animals #came #southern #tip #chilean #patagonia #time #give #birth #because #safe #refuge #sayswe #don039t #know #stayed #but #that #mortality #high #few #days #lifeone #big #unanswered #questions #went #next #records #apart #piece #fin #argentinathe #remains #come #germany #date #jurassic #period #meaning #theyre #olderpalaeontologist #erin #maxwell #suggests #many #modern #ecosystems #migrate #higher #latitudes #summer #take #advantage #seasonally #resources #then #move #lower #winter #avoid #harsh #conditions #explainswe #mesozoic #followed #similar #seasonal #patternssea #dragon #graveyardthe #environment #dubbed #quotsea #graveyardquot #also #has #revealaccording #geologist #matthew #malkowski #texas #austin #age #particularly #intriguing #coincided #major #planetary #changes #breakup #continents #intense #volcanic #episodes #phenomena #quotoceanic #anoxic #eventsquot #vast #areas #ocean #depleted #dissolved #oxygen #hundreds #thousands #yearsone #such #poorly #understood #event #pharaonic #occurred #around #ago #near #end #raises #its #true #impact #lifewe #firm #grasp #significant #events #vertebrates #geological #allow #explore #relationship #between #earths #past #notesevolution #ichthyosaursreconstruction #fionaimage #mauricio #Álvarezdon039t #misled #their #body #shapeichthyosaurs #not #related #dolphins #clarifies #pardopérezalthough #hydrodynamic #silhouettes #look #identical #former #while #latter #mammalsthis #resemblance #results #phenomenon #convergent #evolution #when #lineages #develop #anatomical #features #adapt #same #environmentichthyosaurs #evolved #terrestrial #response #ecological #climatic #spending #water #until #fully #lifestylehowever #retained #traces #landdwelling #ancestry #pair #hind #flippers #absent #passed #down #walking #forebearsthey #lived #thrived #giving #ample #refine #highly #specialized #forelimbs #hindlimbs #transformed #developed #crescentshaped #tail #propulsion #dorsal #stability #streamlined #reduce #drag #waterremarkably #whales #thick #layer #blubber #insulation #maintain #temperature #surrounding #seawater #gave #live #young #meant #didnt #need #leave #reproduce #explains #maxwellwhales #descend #ancestors #transition #happened #over #comparatively #short #evolutionary #timespan #especially #measured #against #reign #ichthyosaurstheir #hasn039t #notes #pardopérezand #yet #similarthats #wonderful #thing #evolutionread #did #swimming #reptile #predate #dinosaursfossils #verge #disappearanceone #factors #behind #remarkable #preservation #fossils #way #buriedaccording #contemporaries #either #swiftly #covered #underwater #landslides #turbidity #currents #processes #sudden #entombmentbut #good #fortune #protected #now #running #outas #retreats #exposing #once #unreachable #vulnerable #wind #rain #freezethaw #cycles #crack #rockas #vegetation #takes #hold #roots #accelerate #erosion #eventually #conceal #againwhile #climate #change #studied #continued #warming #will #lead #loss #warnsin #fionas #story #scientists #record #warning #etched #stone #bone #can #reclaimarticle #sourcesour #writers #discovermagazinecom #use #peerreviewed #studies #highquality #sources #our #articles #editors #review #scientific #accuracy #editorial #standardsreview #used #below #articlemaría #los #Ángeles #orfila #science #journalist #based #montevideo #uruguay #focusing #longform #storytellingher #work #appeared #discover #magazine #geographic #among #outlets #leading #uruguayan #publications #país #observadorshe #fellow #sharon #dunwoody #mentoring #program #open #notebook #often #explores #intersections #culture #latin #american #identity
    First Ever Pregnant Ichthyosaur from the Early Cretaceous Reveals Life in Prehistoric Seas
    During an excavation, amidst the Patagonian winds and hard rock, a fossil began to turn green. It was an unexpected reaction: the adhesive applied to protect the bones, fragile after millions of years beneath the ice, had interacted with plant matter trapped in the rock’s cracks. This greenish hue earned the fossil the nickname Fiona, like the ogre from Shrek.But Fionais much more than a ogre-themed name. It is the first complete ichthyosaur ever excavated in Chile and, even more remarkably, the only known pregnant female from the Hauterivian — a stage of the Early Cretaceous dating back 131 million years. Her skeleton, discovered at the edge of the Tyndall Glacier in Torres del Paine National Park — an area increasingly exposed by glacial retreat — belongs to the species Myobradypterygius hauthali, originally described in Argentina from fragmentary remains.The discovery, led by Judith Pardo-Pérez, a researcher at the University of Magallanes and the Cabo de Hornos International Center (CHIC), and published in the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, offers an unprecedented glimpse into ancient marine life — from how these majestic reptiles reproduced to how they adapted to oceans vastly different from those of today.An Ichthyosaur Maternity Ward in Patagonia(Image Courtesy of Irene Viscor)So far, 88 ichthyosaurs have been found on the Tyndall Glacier. Most of them are adults and newborns. Two key facts stand out: food was abundant, and no other predators were competing with them.Fiona, who measures nearly 13 feet long, is still encased in five blocks of rock. Despite the challenge, she was transported to a local clinic, where CT scans allowed researchers to study her skull and body. Her species was identified thanks to one of her fins. “There’s no other like it in the world,” says Pardo-Pérez. The limbs were remarkably elongated, suggesting this animal was built for long-distance swimming.Inside her, there were more surprises. One of them was her stomach contents, which revealed what may have been her last meal: tiny fish vertebrae. But the most striking find was a fetus, about 20 inches long, already in a position to be born.“We believe these animals came to Magallanes — the southern tip of Chilean Patagonia — from time to time to give birth, because it was a safe refuge,” Pardo-Pérez says. “We don't know how long they stayed, but we do know that mortality was high during the first few days of life.”One of the big unanswered questions is where they went next, as there are no records of Myobradypterygius hauthali, apart from a piece of fin found in Argentina. The most abundant remains come from southern Germany, but those date back to the Jurassic period, meaning they’re older.Palaeontologist Erin Maxwell suggests, “In many modern ecosystems, species migrate to higher latitudes during the summer to take advantage of seasonally abundant resources and then move to lower latitudes in winter to avoid harsh conditions,” she explains. “We believe Mesozoic marine reptiles may have followed similar seasonal patterns.”Sea Dragon GraveyardThe environment where Fiona was discovered — dubbed the "sea dragon graveyard" — also has much to reveal.According to geologist Matthew Malkowski of the University of Texas at Austin, the Hauterivian age is particularly intriguing because it coincided with major planetary changes: the breakup of continents, intense volcanic episodes, and phenomena known as "oceanic anoxic events," during which vast areas of the ocean were depleted of dissolved oxygen for hundreds of thousands of years.One such poorly understood event, the Pharaonic Anoxic Event, occurred around 131 million years ago, near the end of the Hauterivian, and still raises questions about its true impact on marine life. “We don't have a firm grasp of how significant these events were for marine vertebrates, and geological records like that of the Tyndall Glacier allow us to explore the relationship between life, the environment, and Earth’s past conditions,” Malkowski notes.Evolution of IchthyosaursReconstruction of Fiona. (Image Courtesy of Mauricio Álvarez)Don't be misled by their body shape. “Ichthyosaurs are not related to dolphins,” clarifies Pardo-Pérez. Although their hydrodynamic silhouettes may look nearly identical, the former were marine reptiles, while the latter are mammals. This resemblance results from a phenomenon known as convergent evolution: when species from different lineages develop similar anatomical features to adapt to the same environment.Ichthyosaurs evolved from terrestrial reptiles that, in response to ecological and climatic changes, began spending more time in the water until they fully adapted to a marine lifestyle. However, they retained traces of their land-dwelling ancestry, such as a pair of hind flippers — absent in dolphins — passed down from their walking forebears. They lived and thrived in prehistoric oceans for about 180 million years, giving them ample time to refine a highly specialized body: their forelimbs and hindlimbs transformed into flippers; they developed a crescent-shaped tail for propulsion, a dorsal fin for stability, and a streamlined body to reduce drag in the water. Remarkably, like whales and dolphins, “ichthyosaurs had a thick layer of blubber as insulation to maintain a higher body temperature than the surrounding seawater and gave birth to live young, which meant they didn’t need to leave the water to reproduce,” explains Maxwell.Whales and dolphins also descend from land-dwelling ancestors, but their transition happened over a comparatively short evolutionary timespan, especially when measured against the long reign of the ichthyosaurs. “Their evolution hasn't had as much time as that of ichthyosaurs,” notes Pardo-Pérez. “And yet, they look so similar. That’s the wonderful thing about evolution.”Read More: Did a Swimming Reptile Predate the Dinosaurs?Fossils on the Verge of DisappearanceOne of the key factors behind the remarkable preservation of the fossils found in the Tyndall Glacier is the way they were buried. According to Malkowski, Fiona and her contemporaries were either trapped or swiftly covered by underwater landslides and turbidity currents — geological processes that led to their sudden entombment.But the good fortune that protected them for millions of years may now be running out. As the glacier retreats, exposing fossils that were once unreachable, those same remains are now vulnerable to wind, rain, and freeze-thaw cycles, which crack the surrounding rock. As vegetation takes hold, roots accelerate erosion and eventually conceal the fossils once again.“While climate change has allowed these fossils to be studied, continued warming will also eventually lead to their loss,” Maxwell warns. In Fiona’s story, scientists find not only a record of ancient life, but also a warning etched in stone and bone: what time reveals, climate can reclaim.Article SourcesOur writers at Discovermagazine.com use peer-reviewed studies and high-quality sources for our articles, and our editors review for scientific accuracy and editorial standards. Review the sources used below for this article:María de los Ángeles Orfila is a science journalist based in Montevideo, Uruguay, focusing on long-form storytelling. Her work has appeared in Discover Magazine, Science, National Geographic, among other outlets, and in leading Uruguayan publications such as El País and El Observador. She was a fellow in the 2023 Sharon Dunwoody Mentoring Program by The Open Notebook and often explores the intersections of science, culture, and Latin American identity.
    #first #ever #pregnant #ichthyosaur #from #the #early #cretaceous #reveals #life #prehistoric #seas #during #excavation #amidst #patagonian #winds #and #hard #rock #fossil #began #turn #greenit #was #unexpected #reaction #adhesive #applied #protect #bones #fragile #after #millions #years #beneath #ice #had #interacted #with #plant #matter #trapped #rocks #cracksthis #greenish #hue #earned #nickname #fiona #like #ogre #shrekbut #fionais #much #more #than #ogrethemed #nameit #complete #excavated #chile #even #remarkably #only #known #female #hauterivian #stage #dating #back #million #yearsher #skeleton #discovered #edge #tyndall #glacier #torres #del #paine #national #park #area #increasingly #exposed #glacial #retreat #belongs #species #myobradypterygius #hauthali #originally #described #argentina #fragmentary #remainsthe #discovery #led #judith #pardopérez #researcher #university #magallanes #cabo #hornos #international #center #chic #published #journal #vertebrate #paleontology #offers #unprecedented #glimpse #into #ancient #marine #how #these #majestic #reptiles #reproduced #they #adapted #oceans #vastly #different #those #todayan #maternity #ward #patagoniaimage #courtesy #irene #viscorso #far #ichthyosaurs #have #been #found #glaciermost #them #are #adults #newbornstwo #key #facts #stand #out #food #abundant #other #predators #were #competing #themfiona #who #measures #nearly #feet #long #still #encased #five #blocks #rockdespite #challenge #she #transported #local #clinic #where #scans #allowed #researchers #study #her #skull #bodyher #identified #thanks #one #finstheres #world #says #pardopérezthe #limbs #elongated #suggesting #this #animal #built #for #longdistance #swimminginside #there #surprisesone #stomach #contents #which #revealed #what #may #last #meal #tiny #fish #vertebraebut #most #striking #find #fetus #about #inches #already #position #bornwe #believe #animals #came #southern #tip #chilean #patagonia #time #give #birth #because #safe #refuge #sayswe #don039t #know #stayed #but #that #mortality #high #few #days #lifeone #big #unanswered #questions #went #next #records #apart #piece #fin #argentinathe #remains #come #germany #date #jurassic #period #meaning #theyre #olderpalaeontologist #erin #maxwell #suggests #many #modern #ecosystems #migrate #higher #latitudes #summer #take #advantage #seasonally #resources #then #move #lower #winter #avoid #harsh #conditions #explainswe #mesozoic #followed #similar #seasonal #patternssea #dragon #graveyardthe #environment #dubbed #quotsea #graveyardquot #also #has #revealaccording #geologist #matthew #malkowski #texas #austin #age #particularly #intriguing #coincided #major #planetary #changes #breakup #continents #intense #volcanic #episodes #phenomena #quotoceanic #anoxic #eventsquot #vast #areas #ocean #depleted #dissolved #oxygen #hundreds #thousands #yearsone #such #poorly #understood #event #pharaonic #occurred #around #ago #near #end #raises #its #true #impact #lifewe #firm #grasp #significant #events #vertebrates #geological #allow #explore #relationship #between #earths #past #notesevolution #ichthyosaursreconstruction #fionaimage #mauricio #Álvarezdon039t #misled #their #body #shapeichthyosaurs #not #related #dolphins #clarifies #pardopérezalthough #hydrodynamic #silhouettes #look #identical #former #while #latter #mammalsthis #resemblance #results #phenomenon #convergent #evolution #when #lineages #develop #anatomical #features #adapt #same #environmentichthyosaurs #evolved #terrestrial #response #ecological #climatic #spending #water #until #fully #lifestylehowever #retained #traces #landdwelling #ancestry #pair #hind #flippers #absent #passed #down #walking #forebearsthey #lived #thrived #giving #ample #refine #highly #specialized #forelimbs #hindlimbs #transformed #developed #crescentshaped #tail #propulsion #dorsal #stability #streamlined #reduce #drag #waterremarkably #whales #thick #layer #blubber #insulation #maintain #temperature #surrounding #seawater #gave #live #young #meant #didnt #need #leave #reproduce #explains #maxwellwhales #descend #ancestors #transition #happened #over #comparatively #short #evolutionary #timespan #especially #measured #against #reign #ichthyosaurstheir #hasn039t #notes #pardopérezand #yet #similarthats #wonderful #thing #evolutionread #did #swimming #reptile #predate #dinosaursfossils #verge #disappearanceone #factors #behind #remarkable #preservation #fossils #way #buriedaccording #contemporaries #either #swiftly #covered #underwater #landslides #turbidity #currents #processes #sudden #entombmentbut #good #fortune #protected #now #running #outas #retreats #exposing #once #unreachable #vulnerable #wind #rain #freezethaw #cycles #crack #rockas #vegetation #takes #hold #roots #accelerate #erosion #eventually #conceal #againwhile #climate #change #studied #continued #warming #will #lead #loss #warnsin #fionas #story #scientists #record #warning #etched #stone #bone #can #reclaimarticle #sourcesour #writers #discovermagazinecom #use #peerreviewed #studies #highquality #sources #our #articles #editors #review #scientific #accuracy #editorial #standardsreview #used #below #articlemaría #los #Ángeles #orfila #science #journalist #based #montevideo #uruguay #focusing #longform #storytellingher #work #appeared #discover #magazine #geographic #among #outlets #leading #uruguayan #publications #país #observadorshe #fellow #sharon #dunwoody #mentoring #program #open #notebook #often #explores #intersections #culture #latin #american #identity
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    First Ever Pregnant Ichthyosaur from the Early Cretaceous Reveals Life in Prehistoric Seas
    During an excavation, amidst the Patagonian winds and hard rock, a fossil began to turn green. It was an unexpected reaction: the adhesive applied to protect the bones, fragile after millions of years beneath the ice, had interacted with plant matter trapped in the rock’s cracks. This greenish hue earned the fossil the nickname Fiona, like the ogre from Shrek.But Fionais much more than a ogre-themed name. It is the first complete ichthyosaur ever excavated in Chile and, even more remarkably, the only known pregnant female from the Hauterivian — a stage of the Early Cretaceous dating back 131 million years. Her skeleton, discovered at the edge of the Tyndall Glacier in Torres del Paine National Park — an area increasingly exposed by glacial retreat — belongs to the species Myobradypterygius hauthali, originally described in Argentina from fragmentary remains.The discovery, led by Judith Pardo-Pérez, a researcher at the University of Magallanes and the Cabo de Hornos International Center (CHIC), and published in the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, offers an unprecedented glimpse into ancient marine life — from how these majestic reptiles reproduced to how they adapted to oceans vastly different from those of today.An Ichthyosaur Maternity Ward in Patagonia(Image Courtesy of Irene Viscor)So far, 88 ichthyosaurs have been found on the Tyndall Glacier. Most of them are adults and newborns. Two key facts stand out: food was abundant, and no other predators were competing with them.Fiona, who measures nearly 13 feet long, is still encased in five blocks of rock. Despite the challenge, she was transported to a local clinic, where CT scans allowed researchers to study her skull and body. Her species was identified thanks to one of her fins. “There’s no other like it in the world,” says Pardo-Pérez. The limbs were remarkably elongated, suggesting this animal was built for long-distance swimming.Inside her, there were more surprises. One of them was her stomach contents, which revealed what may have been her last meal: tiny fish vertebrae. But the most striking find was a fetus, about 20 inches long, already in a position to be born.“We believe these animals came to Magallanes — the southern tip of Chilean Patagonia — from time to time to give birth, because it was a safe refuge,” Pardo-Pérez says. “We don't know how long they stayed, but we do know that mortality was high during the first few days of life.”One of the big unanswered questions is where they went next, as there are no records of Myobradypterygius hauthali, apart from a piece of fin found in Argentina. The most abundant remains come from southern Germany, but those date back to the Jurassic period, meaning they’re older.Palaeontologist Erin Maxwell suggests, “In many modern ecosystems, species migrate to higher latitudes during the summer to take advantage of seasonally abundant resources and then move to lower latitudes in winter to avoid harsh conditions,” she explains. “We believe Mesozoic marine reptiles may have followed similar seasonal patterns.”Sea Dragon GraveyardThe environment where Fiona was discovered — dubbed the "sea dragon graveyard" — also has much to reveal.According to geologist Matthew Malkowski of the University of Texas at Austin, the Hauterivian age is particularly intriguing because it coincided with major planetary changes: the breakup of continents, intense volcanic episodes, and phenomena known as "oceanic anoxic events," during which vast areas of the ocean were depleted of dissolved oxygen for hundreds of thousands of years.One such poorly understood event, the Pharaonic Anoxic Event, occurred around 131 million years ago, near the end of the Hauterivian, and still raises questions about its true impact on marine life. “We don't have a firm grasp of how significant these events were for marine vertebrates, and geological records like that of the Tyndall Glacier allow us to explore the relationship between life, the environment, and Earth’s past conditions,” Malkowski notes.Evolution of IchthyosaursReconstruction of Fiona. (Image Courtesy of Mauricio Álvarez)Don't be misled by their body shape. “Ichthyosaurs are not related to dolphins,” clarifies Pardo-Pérez. Although their hydrodynamic silhouettes may look nearly identical, the former were marine reptiles, while the latter are mammals. This resemblance results from a phenomenon known as convergent evolution: when species from different lineages develop similar anatomical features to adapt to the same environment.Ichthyosaurs evolved from terrestrial reptiles that, in response to ecological and climatic changes, began spending more time in the water until they fully adapted to a marine lifestyle. However, they retained traces of their land-dwelling ancestry, such as a pair of hind flippers — absent in dolphins — passed down from their walking forebears. They lived and thrived in prehistoric oceans for about 180 million years, giving them ample time to refine a highly specialized body: their forelimbs and hindlimbs transformed into flippers; they developed a crescent-shaped tail for propulsion, a dorsal fin for stability, and a streamlined body to reduce drag in the water. Remarkably, like whales and dolphins, “ichthyosaurs had a thick layer of blubber as insulation to maintain a higher body temperature than the surrounding seawater and gave birth to live young, which meant they didn’t need to leave the water to reproduce,” explains Maxwell.Whales and dolphins also descend from land-dwelling ancestors, but their transition happened over a comparatively short evolutionary timespan, especially when measured against the long reign of the ichthyosaurs. “Their evolution hasn't had as much time as that of ichthyosaurs,” notes Pardo-Pérez. “And yet, they look so similar. That’s the wonderful thing about evolution.”Read More: Did a Swimming Reptile Predate the Dinosaurs?Fossils on the Verge of DisappearanceOne of the key factors behind the remarkable preservation of the fossils found in the Tyndall Glacier is the way they were buried. According to Malkowski, Fiona and her contemporaries were either trapped or swiftly covered by underwater landslides and turbidity currents — geological processes that led to their sudden entombment.But the good fortune that protected them for millions of years may now be running out. As the glacier retreats, exposing fossils that were once unreachable, those same remains are now vulnerable to wind, rain, and freeze-thaw cycles, which crack the surrounding rock. As vegetation takes hold, roots accelerate erosion and eventually conceal the fossils once again.“While climate change has allowed these fossils to be studied, continued warming will also eventually lead to their loss,” Maxwell warns. In Fiona’s story, scientists find not only a record of ancient life, but also a warning etched in stone and bone: what time reveals, climate can reclaim.Article SourcesOur writers at Discovermagazine.com use peer-reviewed studies and high-quality sources for our articles, and our editors review for scientific accuracy and editorial standards. Review the sources used below for this article:María de los Ángeles Orfila is a science journalist based in Montevideo, Uruguay, focusing on long-form storytelling. Her work has appeared in Discover Magazine, Science, National Geographic, among other outlets, and in leading Uruguayan publications such as El País and El Observador. She was a fellow in the 2023 Sharon Dunwoody Mentoring Program by The Open Notebook and often explores the intersections of science, culture, and Latin American identity.
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