How it worked on Captain America: Brave New World, with production designer Ramsey Avery.Here at befores & afters, we dont often get to discuss how films are made with the production designer. But, we were given the opportunity to interview production designer Ramsey Avery about his role on director Julius Onahs Captain America: Brave New World for an insight into his art department on the film.In this interview, we discuss coming up with a certain look for the film, the cross-over between production design and visual effects, designing sets (including making scale foamcore models as part of set development), and the idea of dressing sets before and after destruction.b&a: Im always interested in the first conversations you may have had about Brave New World and the look of the film. What do you discuss with Julius, the director?Ramsey Avery: When Julius took on the project, I think he pitched it specifically as the version he wanted to do of this story, which was to take it into the world of 70s political thrillers. Marvel, in particular, wanted to find a way to kind of bring a sense of groundedness back into the MCU. And this particular story was also a story that was really embedded in a sense of a real person struggling through a real issue; Sam is not a super soldier. He has to figure out how to be a superhero without having that serum and that special strength. And so Julius thought that it needed to be grounded in a much more kind of visceral world. He went back to the 70s political thrillers, movies like Day of the Jackal, Le Samoura, The Parallax View. These had a very specific point of view, in terms of the way that they were shot and designed.Color key frames.Color script.I mean, Le Samoura is very stylized, but the other movies are much more naturalistic. But even in that case, he also looked at some movies like Trance and The Killing of a Sacred Deer, which are also slightly stylized, but are definitely within a sense of reality. And what was important about movies like that is those movies are trying to get at a sense of controlwho is controlling the story and the narrative within the action of those movies? And so you look at those older movies, you look at the more contemporary movies, and all of them have a real solid stance, in terms of, even though theyre realistic in many cases, the design is very specific.Julius described it as meticulous design, and by that, he meant choosing very specific locations, designing very specific sets, where you could frame the characters within a specific lighting, with a specific color, and with a very strong point of view, to suggest either somebody was watching, or reflection was happening in some place that told you something about how the character was considering their place in the world.Director Julius Onah (left) with production designer Ramsey Avery.Or, just simply that, in the storytelling, it had a very kind of graphic clarity that we wanted to convey. That was kind of the basis of the discussion, is that sense of, How do we place Sam within his overall story arc as this real person with not superhuman abilities, trying to figure out how he can be Captain America, while a whole lot of political intrigue is actually going on as part of this story that he has to contend with?b&a: Thats fascinating. What ended up being, say, one example of a particular location or set piece where you were able to fulfill that vision? I mean, apart from the whole film, but one particular example?Ramsey Avery: Well, thats interesting. I think there are a couple of places where that kind of thing pops out. Yeah, it is all of them, but because thats something that we had to work with the DP (Kramer Morgenthau) with in every case, like, Can we get the shots that were looking for in this location? In some places, when youre dealing with the White House, its the White House, so you cant change the idea of the White House, but you can say, Heres the Rose Garden and heres the lines of the Rose Garden. So, how are we going to set up the way that we film the Rose Garden to get those strong lines of that shape, to help us focus on the characters where we want to focus on the characters? What are the angles we pick?Since we had to build that setbecause we werent going to really shoot it at the Rose Gardenwe had the opportunity to pick, How are we going to emphasize, to tell this meticulous design and focus the camera on our characters where we want to focus our design on the characters? Some of that had to do with how we changed the plantings in the Rose Garden, and the shape of the hedge work, and where we put colorful trees, and where we took out colorful trees. All of that was about how to get to something, Heres a real world thing, but we still have to shift it and adjust it to make it cinematic in our movie.b&a: Tell me about how a set piece like the Rose Garden actually emerges? Does it of course become a conversation first and then become concept art, or do you dive straight into some sort of 3D sketch-up type things? Tell me about the evolution of the Rose Garden set.Ramsey Avery: Well, the first thing is research. We try to get as much research as we possibly can, and contemporary research of anything at the White House is very hard to come by. They dont have a lot of photography, but you can look at press conferences, and there is some candid photography of various presidents in the Rose Garden, so you can pull some of that to find some references. I was lucky enough to work on White House Down, which actually had been done before they started closing off a lot of the access to photos in the White House, so I did actually have some pictures from that that helped inform this.So, it starts with the research, to try to figure out what parts and pieces, again, are important to the storytelling. And then, from that, we do a model. We do a digital model, and we work out the general shape language. We ask ourselves, Are we going to make it as big as the real Rose Garden? And, working with the model, we decided that we wanted to make it the exact same size as the real thing. The same number of columns, same general layout as the real one. It just felt like thats the space we needed.Of course, sometimes theres budget saying, You should make things smaller, and theres also the whole conversation of, Whats going to be visual effects and whats going to be real? In the digital model, you can start to suss out what those components are. It lets you work out, Do you build up to just one part of the corner? Do you build the frieze above it? You can start to sort all of that out in the digital model. But that only gets so far. Even today after weve been using digital tools for a long time dont necessarily know how to really look at a digital model and really see it.So, after we took the digital model and we approved that, then we went through a set design process, where we drafted it all out. And from that, we built a physical model in quarter-inch scaleit mightve been eighth-inchso that we had this physical model that everybody could stand around and say, This person moves here, and this person moves here, and we can put the camera here, and then we need a big light over here, and heres where the bluescreen needs to go, so that we can make sure that we can extend the sky beyond it.And while were looking at that physical model, we ask, What shots do we do that keep it as much in-camera as possible? Because we dont want to make it visual effects unless we have to. Clearly, when big destruction is happening, theres some things we can destroy, but destroying the whole thing is something thats not probably going to be practical, because we probably want to have a take two, right? So if you destroy the whole thing, its really hard to go back to take two.So, theres some elements that we want to do in visual effects, but generally, we want to use that practical model to say, Okay, we will build to here and well build to here. And if we keep the camera in this area, then we keep it in camera, and we dont have to do visual effects. It looks more real, and it doesnt spend the money in visual effects. And wheres the balance of whats real, whats versus visual effects to make the most sense out of everybodys time, money, and schedule?b&a: You mentioned the interaction there with visual effects, and Im curious about those conversations you may have had, perhaps it was with Bill Westenhofer at that point, before Alessandro Ongaro came in.Ramsey Avery: Well, again, it came down to, What size should we build it? and we decided, partly to minimize the visual effects, that we should build it in the real size, because a movie has a certain amount of budget, and whether you spend the money in visual effects or whether you spend the money in practical, youre still spending the money, so wheres the wisest place to spend it? How many visual effects shots are you going to drive if you bring the set too low or you build the set too short?So that conversation happens with Bill and with the producer, Yasamin Ismaili, to make sure that were maximizing the right spend in the right places, and also to just make it feel more real, because visual effects can be great, but you still can kind of read real versus visual effects, even really great visual effects. So, as much as you can make it real, the better off everybody is. Just takes less time, if nothing else.We have those specific discussions with the DP, and with Julius, saying, If we do X, Y, and Z, then we know we can keep it in-camera. But when we know we have to go wide, because now were going to see the full White House behind us in these shots, looking down the opposite direction, then what are the cut lines? How do, as a production designer in an art department, how do we figure out where the right places to put cut lines into the sets are, so we make that transition as straightforward and believable as we can?So, we looked into, Where do the trees go? How dense do the trees need to be? We dont want really lacy trees, because that makes it very hard to extend past them. We want to use platforming to put the press on, that gives us a very solid line back behind there to do that. We had those conversations about how we could make the hand-off as practical and as straightforward as we could.b&a: Im also curious about any interaction you end up having with previs. I always talk about previs with the visual effects supervisor, but I often dont necessarily feel like theres always heavy involvement of the other departments, but perhaps you did on this one?Ramsey Avery: Well, in general, its super important to have the art department involved in the previs. Generally speaking, wed prefer to have the art department design the environments that the previs is being set in, so that we know ahead of time that thats stuff that we can build. Ive been on projects where previs just goes off and does stuff, and were like, Wait, wait, wait a minute. We cant do that, for any number of reasons. So its always best to have previs work with designs that the art department creates. Thats the launching point, based on the discussions that weve already had with the director and the DP about what they want to have happen in the scene.Ramsey Avery.As far as previs goes, we have meetings along the way to talk about, How are we going to do that? All right, so the Hulk is going to rip out a column from the back wall. How do we do that? Whos doing what in that case? There wed have a discussion with special effects about, What can they do, what can the set support, what does visual effects need to take over? We basically work with previs step by step, shot by shot to say, What do we have to do?One thing to note with destruction and with practical special effects, theres always a before and an aftermath. So in one shot youve built, you work out what the before is, and then theres whatever stunt work and special effects rig has to be to collapse something. And then, once that stunt and that special effects is done, then you dress in the aftermath. So as you work through the previs, youre looking for those beats, which then specifically talks to the director or the DP and the first AD about how theyre going to schedule the shoot. And sometimes, you have to do things backwards. You want to do the aftermath first, because its easier to dress all that mess in, and clean it out.Thats what we did with Hains Point and the cherry blossoms. All the destruction that happens in that, we actually built that first, and we built it on top of the undestroyed set. So we took the time to sculpt all the destroyed stuff in, quickly pulled that out, revealed the undestroyed set underneath that, fluffed that up, made that pretty, brought a few undestroyed trees in, and moved forward. So thats all done again by looking at previs or storyboards. We dont always need previs, but just working out scene by scene with everybody that needs to have a say in the matter to figure out what we do when. It becomes a very logistical process. It also is a design process, because sometimes youll look at a previs and you go, Thats just not working for the story. How do we adjust the design to get the story to work?b&a: You mentioned the confrontation there between Sam and Red Hulk, and the cherry blossoms around that are just beautiful. Can you talk a bit more about that, including the before and the after?Ramsey Avery: Well, clearly were not going to go to Washington, D.C. and shoot the real cherry trees in Washington, D.C. For just all kinds of reasons. Logistically, we were not going to be at the right time of the year when the cherry blossoms are in bloom, and were not going to take over the tourists being there. Thats the time they get to be there. So we know we have to build it and we have to control it. Were not going to grow cherry trees and try to get real cherry trees at the right time with blossoms. We have to build them. And again, we sit down and we work through, in this case, we had some rough storyboards, and we used the rough storyboards to figure out what kind of trees we needed and where to help tell the story.We laid out a basic footprint using about 24 trees. And then, I spent days sorting out through the storyboards how we could use that group of trees to represent each bit of the fight, because we have to use part of the fight here, then part of the fight is here, and then part of the fight is here. So how do we adjust cars, and street lamps, and trees, and whats broken and whats not broken during the fight, and how that all gets worked out. And so all of that becomes a process of discussing with stunts, and special effects, and visual effects, and the DP, and the first AD, and the director about how to get all of that pulled together.We basically did, again, a digital model, and then I did the 2D planning of how we make all the stuff make sense. Then, we reviewed all of that in conjunction with the previs, which was being developed simultaneously. And then, we built a model of it, and then to actually do the destruction, because that whole destruction came later in the decision process making, we didnt have time to really do that whole process over again. So what we did is we did a whole bunch of research about destroyed roads and how did they look in an earthquake or a landslide, and then how does an impact crater work? Just all the types of things that might be necessary, visual wise, for the storytelling.And then, I worked with a sculptor, a model-making sculptor. I did a real rough sketch for him and I said, I think this is where the lines need to be, to draw the focus in the shape language, so we know the camera is always pointing where we want. The line work in the set is pointing to where we want it to point. And I worked with the sculptor to develop all of that, and then basically, that maquette became the guide that the sculptors built in real scale.On a soundstage, we built all of that in scale, and walked the director and the DP through it at a couple of points, and agreed that that was what it was, finished it on the stage, and then we were shooting the Rose Garden in the same place we had to shoot the cherry tree set. So we had a very quick turnaround. We struck out, we were building the trees in one place, we were building the practical broken road in someplace else, and then we strike out all of the Rose Garden, and we bring the trees, and we bring the destroyed sets in. We paved the roads, so we have a real road. We put the real grass mats underneath all that, and then put the mess on top of it, shoot all of that, pull everything away, put the trees back in, and then shoot the fight. That happened in the space.b&a: Ramsey, my readers will be obsessed, I think, with knowing what the scale model maquette is made out of, or what materials you tend to use for that sort of thing? Is it foamcore, for example?Ramsey Avery: Its just foam or foamcore. I mean, for doing the sculptor work, youre using a gray foam or a yellow foam, a dense foam that gives you some chance to do some detailing going in it. You go to the train model store, and you buy the trees, and you flock them. You flock your trees based on the scale that youve worked out in the digital model, about how big and how wide the trees need to be. You do the flocking, and the grass, and all of that.b&a: Ramsey, these films are so big, and youre so heavily involved obviously in pre-production and then obviously production. Im always curious if you get a chance to liaise directly with the visual effects studios when theyre doing their CG builds, because of course, in some ways, that mirrors your work completely. But timing wise, Im not sure youre always able to do that. Was that possible here at all?Ramsey Avery: Well, in this case, well, honestly, in most cases, it just simply isnt possible. As a designer, youre onto your next project by the time all of thats underway. Also, to have you on keeping to provide input, in regards to the union rules, well, they have to pay you for that time. So the studios want to kind of minimize that input. The issue then becomes how much can you have those discussions while were all together, and build the framework ahead of time, so that everybody agrees that this is what youre doing?Concept art for the battle around Celestial Island.Ill usually get some questions along the way. Somebody will send some images to me or theyll say, Did you mean this? Or, sometimes Ill come in and Ill take a look at a collage. It depends on where I am in the world. Like, if Im in India and theyre doing the work in LA, theyre not going to send me something online to look at it on my computer screen. It doesnt make a lot of sense, in terms of an animation. So generally speaking, what we all do in the world of production design and visual effects is try to sort all of that out as cleanly and as completely, get as much illustration work done, get as much modeling done, and then hope that that all works out.Ill say that there was a huge backstory in the film to the Celestial Island in terms of adamantium is and what happens in there. We did a lot of work, working all of that out. And then, in the movie, because of various other reasons that happened in the storytelling, it was not in there. So sometimes, you do a lot of work and everybody agrees, but then something changes. And thats just the nature of the creative process. It just happens.Concept art for the battle around Celestial Island.b&a: I wonder if youd like to talk about another set piece or location that you were particularly fond of or that was particularly tricky, just to break that down as well?Ramsey Avery: There was a set for Camp Echo One, the prison set. A couple things about that that I was really happy with. In the script, it happened initially in Yellowstone. And Im like, Why is it in Yellowstone? That doesnt make any sense to me. And besides, how does Sam get to there in the timeframe of the storytelling? It involved having to have a whole airplane flight and a conversation, and it was a whole bunch of stuff that just didnt help the storytelling. So, I was trying to figure out where else it could be. Part of the thing is that it needed to be in a black spot, right? Someplace where there was not any communication available.I was doing some research, and I realized that there was this place in West Virginia that was the National Radio Telescope Observatory. And because of that, it needed to keep the air clean of radio waves. So for 50 years, there have been no radio waves allowed in this city. Theres no cell phones, theres no Wi-Fi in this town. And so its like, Well, thats a cool place, and thats a great place to hide in plain sight, right?I assumed that we would end up having to find some base of the radio telescopes and then visually effect this extension to make the things. But as it turns out, an hour outside of Atlanta, theres some decommissioned radio telescopes in a forest, so it was a great find. And then, you can go to the director and to Marvel and say, Look what we found, and this is how it works, and this is why it makes sense. And theyre like, Hey, you are saving us some money, and it also looks great. So that was all a really good surprise, and I really liked the way that that looked. But then, underneath of it, we actually started with a much more Marvel design to this. But part of what this movie was really trying to be, one of our key words was grounded. We ultimately didnt want to do those big Marvel gestures.So, I designed a set look for all of Camp Echo One that I was really proud of. It had a panopticon kind of center tower, and a great, big, swooping environment, and it looked really cool, and it felt kind of grungy and period, and all of that was great. But as we looked more into it, its like, It just feels too grand for the movie were trying to tell. We want something that feels more real.The other thing is that we also had a storyline going on that we wanted to tell a story of people being kept in boxes, and as they free themselves, the spaces around them become more open. So Sam starts off in more enclosed spaces, Ross starts off in more enclosed spaces. In that very first scene, hes in that little, tiny backstage area with all this glass, kind of caged in the corner. Everything we wanted to do wanted to support that.So, instead of designing a prison that had a big, open vault where you could see all the prisoners at once, it felt better to actually put it in small, contained corridors, and figure out how to make that make sense within the action and the story beats that we wanted to have. And then, from that, we could tell a whole story about what was built in the 50s, what was added in the 60s, what happened in the 80s. We could visually layer up all of that in terms of the architecture and the design of the space, and then also tell the story about how Sterns figured out mind control, in the sense that we were doing some research, and there was, in the 50s, a lot of exploration in terms of how lighting could control the moods of prisoners.We took the idea that there were these lighting controls within the spaces that were designed specifically to calm and control the prisoners. And Sterns figured that out, and then, he did a whole process of figuring out how to adapt that and turn that into literal mind control. And in the one room that Joaquin goes into, you can see each step of the way has been done in dressing, and from the big lights down into smaller and smaller, more miniaturized versions.So all of that storytelling, its thematic. It tells why its a horrible place for Isaiah to be. Its also why its a horrible place for Stern to be. It fits within the tones and the themes of the movies that we want to tell, color and shape, language and boxes, and not boxes. And I just felt like thats one of those places where you can kind of consolidate something thats sort of this really big, grand, epic, sci-fi-y idea, and became much more grounded, and in that case became better.b&a: Sterns lab was also fantastically designed. It just felt like I wanted to be in there a bit longer and have a look around at all the crazy devices and whatnot.Ramsey Avery: Yeah, I mean, each of those devices, we did a lot of research into psychiatric care in the 50s and 60s, and so everything came from a real thing. And then, adding on top of that, the stuff that Sterns wouldve needed to do his further development, and what Ross wouldve provided to him to do his further development. So again, theres this whole layering of 50s tech with much more contemporary tech, and bioengineering, and that kind of medical studies added on top of it. So yeah, actually, I mean, our set decorator, Rosemary Brandenburg is brilliant. Shes just brilliant.And so we had these discussions to begin with, and talked about the specifics of all of that. And then, you get into the discussions like, Julius wants to have glass and reflections. It meant we can play with that idea of transparency and reflection in the space, so that adds another layer to the idea of it. And then, you have all the stunts, and so you have to figure out what the action can be, and how does the design support the action? What are the props? Whats the dressing? What does the stunt guy want to do? You know, he wants a needle, or he wants a tube, or these things that the stunt guy comes up with.Then, you have to figure out a way to work into the visual reality of the set that youre putting together. Its all fun. I mean, its all such a puzzle, and all that, and working with everybody there together, thats probably my favorite part of the whole process. Its just all these great, wonderful, talented, smart people that you get to bounce ideas around with all day long.The post The cross-over between production design and visual effects appeared first on befores & afters.