DriftingSpirit Member Oct 25, 2017 18,463 As we tend to brag from time to time, it's becoming more and more evident that the winner of the console wars isn't a console at all—but the humble personal computer. We're totally not biased in this opinion given the name of our website, and I don't appreciate the insinuation. In all seriousness, there is some truth to it. Console exclusives keep coming to PC, their sales are down, and the conveniences of couch play are no longer the domain of the console alone. Even Nintendo, everlasting bastion of the console exclusive, is struggling to market its Switch 2 in a way that doesn't make it look like a Steam deck with fewer games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Former PlayStation executive Shawn Layden, speaking to podcast PlayerDriven, did some wondering out loud on the subject, and he thinks that the console war's triumvirate of manufacturers is something that needs to go, full stop: "Ultimately, I would like the games industry to have the same penetration rate as television sets do." Penetration rate is just fancy exec talk for 'what proportion of the population has this thing'. For example, most households in the UK have a kettle. Because we like our tea very much. "So how do you get there? One thing, I don't think you get there by having only three manufacturers." Click to expand... Click to shrink... Layden posits that "The architecture in the current version of [consoles] and of high-end PCs are quite close now, they're all quite similar. And any changes or any enhancements to that—like we like to say in the studios, 'only the dog can hear that'. Like, 'we're gonna have 20% more ray tracing'. Okay?" Click to expand... Click to shrink... Sure, you can grab an absolute terror for a couple thousand dollars—way more expensive than a console would run you—but Layden is right in that only graphically-minded freaks like our hardworking hardware team are going to be able to notice the difference. If you're aiming for the same ubiquity of a kettle, TV, or fridge? The vast majority of people won't see much change between a mid-range gaming PC and a console. In an ecosystem where visual fidelity is a huge selling point, as long as you can conceivably push for "20% more ray-tracing", people are gonna want that. Even if the senses required to notice it are an acquired taste. Not to mention, AI, which could be used to further technological equity between rigs, is mostly just being used to make games even more ultrareal. I don't see a Blu-ray-style future for PC gaming any time soon. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Source   Valcrist Tic-Tac-Toe Champion Member Oct 25, 2017 10,742 Not the first time he has said it and not the first time he was wrong.   flatearthpandas Member Oct 26, 2017 6,791 Very obnoxious article, to be honest. And Layden's comment matches it to a T.   wonzo Member Oct 25, 2017 1,773 tired of hearing from this attention deprived clown   Aspect Member Feb 19, 2023 2,304 Lmao Shawn Layden Valcrist said: Not the first time he has said it and not the first time he was wrong. Click to expand... Click to shrink... First post nails it.  nsilvias Member Oct 25, 2017 29,443 > I don't see a Blu-ray-style future for PC gaming any time soon. what  Dyle One Winged Slayer The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 32,653 Even Nintendo, everlasting bastion of the console exclusive, is struggling to market its Switch 2 in a way that doesn't make it look like a Steam deck with fewer games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... PCGamer never disappoints with their console war nonsense. How do they come up with this stuff?   Slayven Never read a comic in his life Moderator Oct 25, 2017 101,597 Layden posits that "The architecture in the current version of [consoles] and of high-end PCs are quite close now, they're all quite similar. And any changes or any enhancements to that—like we like to say in the studios, 'only the dog can hear that'. Like, 'we're gonna have 20% more ray tracing'. Okay?" Click to expand... Click to shrink... He is right.....I mean does the average gamer even know what ray tracing ins? We are in a bubble, sometimes in a bubble of a bubble   blueredandgold Member Oct 25, 2017 8,295 bark bark bark   tjh282 Member May 29, 2019 1,040 This dude love doing interviews my word.   Nida Member Aug 31, 2019 14,754 Everett, Washington As someone who has been going between a game running at 120 FPS to Avowed and AC Shadows running at 40 he's just wrong. Now if you could make your console run everything at resolution at 60 or 120 maybe he would have an argument.  Sabin Member Oct 25, 2017 5,989 He is not wrong. Modern consoles are pretty much just rebranded PCs at this point with static hardware and the fidelity upgrades with each gen are getting smaller and smaller.  headspawn Member Oct 27, 2017 14,955 Dyle said: PCGamer never disappoints with their console war nonsense. How do they come up with this stuff? Click to expand... Click to shrink... The statement is so backwards and dumb at the same time, impressive.  The Boat Member Oct 28, 2017 5,124 I didn't read it was PC gamer in the title but I knew it was them when I read the quotes. It's actually impressive how bad they are.   Flame Lord Member Oct 26, 2017 3,539 Valcrist said: Not the first time he has said it and not the first time he was wrong. Click to expand... Click to shrink... What is he wrong about? What could you name that's different between a modern console and PC that the layman cares about?  Praedyth Member Feb 25, 2020 8,360 Brazil The plus side of Shu's retirement is those headlines will be a 50/50 chance of being Shawn lmao   SaintBowWow Member Oct 25, 2017 4,216 He's right. High end gaming hardware is getting into audiophile territory where only enthusiasts who knew how to pick up on minuscule quality improvements really give a shit. A base PS5 can play any modern game at a quality level that the vast majority of the market would find completely acceptable.   massoluk Member Oct 25, 2017 7,646 Thailand Slayven said: He is right.....I mean does the average gamer even know what ray tracing ins? We are in a bubble, sometimes in a bubble of a bubble Click to expand... Click to shrink... Agreed. Lost me with DLSS and shits. All these jargons are alien languages. Even Nintendo, everlasting bastion of the console exclusive, is struggling to market its Switch 2 in a way that doesn't make it look like a Steam deck with fewer games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... You are drunk, PCGamer   krae_man Master of Balan Wonderworld Member Oct 25, 2017 10,533 If we are talking about hearing, wouldn't consoles have better audio because consoles are more likely to be connected to living room TV's which are more likely to have surround sound systems?   Alienous Member Oct 25, 2017 9,868 nsilvias said: > I don't see a Blu-ray-style future for PC gaming any time soon. what Click to expand... Click to shrink... The context is in the article. The idea is manufacturers making console-like PC hardware with a common specification, like meeting the blu-ray standard. Basically Valve's Steam Machine concept, if that's familiar.  thepenguin55 Member Oct 28, 2017 13,849 Does this guy do anything other than comment on the industry now? Like what is his job now? Why is he seemingly getting interviewed all the time and people always seem to wanna pay attention to what he has to say? I'm constantly baffled by how many comments I have to come across by this "former PlayStation exec".   NSESN ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 25, 2017 27,432 Even Nintendo, everlasting bastion of the console exclusive, is struggling to market its Switch 2 in a way that doesn't make it look like a Steam deck with fewer games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Lol PC Gamer writers need to leave their own bubble. It isn't Switch 2 that looks like a Steamd deck, it is the Steam Deck that looks like a switch  stormfire Member Nov 26, 2018 3,294 thepenguin55 said: Does this guy do anything other than comment on the industry now? Like what is his job now? Why is he seemingly getting interviewed all the time and people always seem to wanna pay attention to what he has to say? I'm constantly baffled by how many comments I have to come across by this "former PlayStation exec". Click to expand... Click to shrink... He works for Tencent as a strategic advisor.   NSESN ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 25, 2017 27,432 Dyle said: PCGamer never disappoints with their console war nonsense. How do they come up with this stuff? Click to expand... Click to shrink... I still don't know how they are still allowed here after their nintendo museum stunt   Servbot24 The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 47,057 Slayven said: He is right.....I mean does the average gamer even know what ray tracing ins? We are in a bubble, sometimes in a bubble of a bubble Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yep. This thread is full of the exact people who would notice a dropped frame. 99% of the population would not. It makes perfect sense to target the 99% when you're developing a game - especially when pleasing the 1% is so much more expensive. thepenguin55 said: Does this guy do anything other than comment on the industry now? Like what is his job now? Why is he seemingly getting interviewed all the time and people always seem to wanna pay attention to what he has to say? I'm constantly baffled by how many comments I have to come across by this "former PlayStation exec". Click to expand... Click to shrink... What would be the allowable number of interviews for him to accept?   Flame Lord Member Oct 26, 2017 3,539 NSESN said: Lol PC Gamer writers need to leave their own bubble. It isn't Switch 2 that looks like a Steamd deck, it is the Steam Deck that looks like a switch Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah and the Switch 2 looks like a Steam Deck, I don't think that statement is particularly out there.  NSESN ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 25, 2017 27,432 Flame Lord said: Yeah and the Switch 2 looks like a Steam Deck, I don't think that statement is particularly out there. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Because it looks like a Switch. Nintendo isn't to blame that Valve got inspired by their design seriously PC fans trying to force the Deck like a big competition to Nintendo never made sense.  Transistor This isn't going to go the way you think Administrator Oct 25, 2017 40,847 Washington, D.C. PC Gamer's hilarious takes always make me laugh like a madman   thepenguin55 Member Oct 28, 2017 13,849 Servbot24 said: Yep. This thread is full of the exact people who would notice a dropped frame. 99% of the population would not. It makes perfect sense to target the 99% when you're developing a game - especially when pleasing the 1% is so much more expensive. What would be the allowable number of interviews for him to accept? Click to expand... Click to shrink... Preferably zero. I'm sick of hearing of him and his incredible "insights".   Servbot24 The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 47,057 thepenguin55 said: Preferably zero Click to expand... Click to shrink... There you go. The "why doesn't he ever shut his yap" thing that Gamers love to do always boils down to "I don't like him cuz he said something that ever so slightly diminishes my toy"   Lump One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 18,108 I'll say that the PS5 Pro bridges some tech that really does close the latest gaps between PCs and consoles. It has got an upscaling solution - even if 1-2 years behind DLSS's standard, but we've seen the promise of FSR4 and it feels like that gap can and will be closed by the time the PS6 rolls around. It has got more raytracing capability to give it some impressive effects that were mostly exclusive to PC, but even then the base PS5 brought some measure of raytracing. You see those reflections in AC Shadows at 30fps Quality or 40fps Balanced and it really would make any casual player hard pressed to tell a major difference between what you can get on PC for anywhere close to that PS5 Pro pricepoint. It was even the PS5 that flanked the PC market for a while when it came to DirectStorage, which above raytracing and upscaling is what I consider the be the biggest differentiator of this generation. So in terms of architecture, what does the PC market have over consoles right now? Frame generation, yeah - but like the earliest AI upscaling iterations, it's in a bit of rough shape for a lot of games right now. The feeling is pretty janky and floaty for low framerate titles too. I'm sure the PS6 generation will get in on this and it'll probably be better then, but imo outside of some select games, it's mostly a novelty feature right this moment on PC unless you have some truly pricey hardware to make already high framerates even higher. If you really want to get into the dog-can-hear range, we can talk about Sony's HDMI 2.1 bitrate output being too low for full 4:4:4 chroma at 4k 120fps. This is the real nerdshit though, and exactly what the quote is talking about. The vast majority of users don't know or don't care enough about this for it to be a dealbreaker by any measure. So yeah, overall I agree. Especially when taking into account the kinds of PCs you can put together for $700 or even $1000, the PS5 Pro offers the visual bells and whistles that the vast majority of players can expect from a PC in the same or even fairly bit higher price range. You really have to get into ~$1500+ territory with a PC these days to truly outclass the PS5 Pro in a way that can be properly appreciated by either an enthusiast or casual player.  riotous Member Oct 25, 2017 12,298 Seattle Let me play all console gsmes with mouse and keyboard and install mods then. Graphics are not what really matter when gameplay can be so different because of control schemes.  RayCharlizard Member Nov 2, 2017 4,257 riotous said: Let me play all console gsmes with mouse and keyboard and install mods then. Graphics are not what really matter when gameplay can be so different because of control schemes. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm honestly surprised Microsoft hasn't made a Steam Input like solution in reverse for Xbox where at a system level you can just map gamepad inputs to keyboard and mouse.   AzerPhire Member Oct 25, 2017 1,398 I mean they are not exactly wrong. The differences between generations has gotten smaller, there are less unique hooks (Motion controls, special controllers, storage formats) that separate each manufacturers console and the company that has sold the most the past generation has 15 year old graphics tech driving it. Chasing graphics is not working anymore. Games cost more and gamers are playing the same games across multiple generations of devices. Even Microsoft and Sony are looking at handheld options and these will need to be scaled down considerably to have decent graphics and battery performance.  Mobius and Pet Octopus Member Oct 25, 2017 16,272 I have 2 dogs so I guess I am going for a PC.   monketron Member Oct 27, 2017 3,963 RayCharlizard said: I'm honestly surprised Microsoft hasn't made a Steam Input like solution in reverse for Xbox where at a system level you can just map gamepad inputs to keyboard and mouse. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Because you'd piss off every console pvp player who doesn't want to play against mouse/keyboard.  Bonfires Down Member Nov 2, 2017 3,240 I do wonder how things will shake out if the Switch 2 is indeed powerful enough to play most third party games. If much of the audience consider that performance 'good enough' and it becomes a battle of exclusives vs Sony - well, i'd bet on Nintendo in such a battle.   DJtal Member Oct 30, 2017 1,789 Capetown / South Africa Probably why online gaming prices on PC just got raised. I guess even my dog can be an exec for a videogame company.   Cronogear ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 27, 2017 4,861 Even Nintendo, everlasting bastion of the console exclusive, is struggling to market its Switch 2 in a way that doesn't make it look like a Steam deck with fewer games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Didn't even click on the article, knew it was PC Gamer after this line.   Alexandros Member Oct 26, 2017 19,451 I think it's a realistic statement that applies to the average buyer. What few people usually mention is that it's also true for current-gen consoles themselves compared to lower-end hardware like their predecessors. So many people out there are perfectly happy playing old games with 'outdated' graphics. Dyle said: PCGamer never disappoints with their console war nonsense. How do they come up with this stuff? Click to expand... Click to shrink... PC Gamer aggressively hunts for clicks on almost every article. It's very disappointing, given the publication's history.  Lant_War Classic Anus Game The Fallen Jul 14, 2018 25,018 Trying to understand what he's saying but I don't get it. He says architecturally PCs and Consoles are too similar nowadays, true He says most graphic advancements go unnoticed by the majority of players and are driving up cost, true But then: He proposes something "along the lines of the 'game' format … We'd get a pretty good game format OS—if the players could agree to come together—and then licence that out. Just like we do with Blu-ray, just like we do with the compact disk—and let people compete on content." Click to expand... Click to shrink... ??? Is this actually saying anything? I honestly can't tell or how it's related to the graphics topics from before.  Fossora Member Jun 14, 2023 2,177 In terms of visual fidelity it's pretty hard to disagree. Games have been pretty enough for a while, and while yes you can often get more performance (and often stuttering) out of a high-end PC, it's not like back in the PS3/360 days where the difference between a 720p/30fps low-res console game and a 1080p/60-120fps was a pretty night & day difference. It's why I haven't paid much attention to Digital Foundry for the past 8 or so years outside of news regarding upcoming hardware. They do fantastic stuff & I've nothing but respect for the work they do, but games nowadays just look ridiculous on all hardware. Diminishing returns have more than set in, and the focus now for me is on clean IQ and interesting artstyles moreso than a pissing contest between hardware vendors. I think the new Switch 2 Metroid looks more aesthetically pleasing than most of these big fancy RTX titles, and I'm a higher-end PC gamer with little to no interest in the Switch 2.  JohnnyToonami Member Dec 16, 2018 6,155 Earth Slayven said: He is right.....I mean does the average gamer even know what ray tracing ins? We are in a bubble, sometimes in a bubble of a bubble Click to expand... Click to shrink... Your 100% right. A longtime friend whose played games all his life not only doesn't even know what ray tracing is, he doesn't even care about FPS, resolutions, etc, etc. He's just happy playing and enjoying games in a way that works for him. This is what 99% of video gamers are actually like.  Juryvicious Member Oct 28, 2017 8,033 Valcrist said: Not the first time he has said it and not the first time he was wrong. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Agreed. Overall just an obnoxious, and clearly wrong, and slanted, thing to say.  vio55555 Member Apr 11, 2024 3,122 Bonfires Down said: I do wonder how things will shake out if the Switch 2 is indeed powerful enough to play most third party games. If much of the audience consider that performance 'good enough' and it becomes a battle of exclusives vs Sony - well, i'd bet on Nintendo in such a battle. Click to expand... Click to shrink... In Japan, Switch 2 will likely be even more dominant than Switch 1 for 3rd party game market share among consoles. Perhaps like upwards of 90% of some games head-to-head; anybody trying to sell 3rd party games in Japan will need to be on PC and/or Switch 2 (preferably both). Outside Japan, it's probably not realistic until a theoretical Switch 3 in ~8 years. Switch 2 will have games where it compares favorably to PS5/Xbox Series I'd imagine, but it's hard to change that habit over one generation. There will be plenty of Switch 2 owners though that like buy more 3rd party software than they did on Switch. Personally, I view PS5 Pro as basically having reached the point where diminishing returns are so strong on performance that it's difficult to imagine PS6/next Xbox being some significant leap over it. If you get a Switch 3 that's comparable to PS5 Pro in 8-ish years, you're probably looking at the point where it'd be good enough for most gamers outside Japan to consider as their 3rd party device of choice.  Kyle Cross Member Oct 25, 2017 9,337 What's with the hostility against Layden on Era lately? Dude was great at PlayStation and he often has solid takes. Don't tell me people hate him now just because he does a lot of interviews.