DNAbro Member Oct 25, 2017 29,915 "Zenless Zone Zero, its most recent foray, did not perform on par with the company's expectations, according to two people with knowledge of the company. In its launch quarter, it earned less than half its anime predecessors' opening quarter revenue, according to Sensor Tower." ""They're dealing with cannibalization," said Sensor Tower analyst Sam Aune. "The launch of Zenless Zone Zero shows they may be approaching market saturation for what they can do with role-playing games."" There is a *lot* in this article but this stuck out as news worthy. There is general downward trend that has been hitting the gacha industry, reported revenue on Sensor Tower has being going down month after month outside a few outliers. Though many ZZZ players expected it, this is the first confirmation that it is not meeting Hoyo's expectations for revenue. The article is worth reading through to see what Hoyo's goals with AI and how they rebooted their planned shooter again.  CloseTalker Sister in the Craft Member Oct 25, 2017 38,024 It's a tough genre to make as sticky as some of their other games. It never really stood out to me as a game people would play for hundreds of hours and sink a ton of money into.   Lightsong Member Nov 11, 2022 9,267 The more interesting part is the cannibalization aspect. I always believed having three rather similar gigantic live service games running at once is a terrible idea long term, not really sustainable. No one has time to play all of them, their audience is not unlimited and it has to cost a fortune to constantly update them.   PlanetSmasher The Abominable Showman Member Oct 25, 2017 132,223 DNAbro said: ""They're dealing with cannibalization," said Sensor Tower analyst Sam Aune. "The launch of Zenless Zone Zero shows they may be approaching market saturation for what they can do with role-playing games."" Click to expand... Click to shrink... This is something I've been wondering about for a while. The fact that all three of Hoyoverse's games are SO structurally overlappy, with really the main differentiator just being the way their combat systems are expressed, just felt like something that had a distinct shelf life. You can't keep making the same game over and over again but with a different combat system before you run out of people willing to jump to the new one. And like if I'm going to invest my time in a Hoyoverse game, it's going to be the one I've already spent a thousand hours and hundreds of dollars of my own money in, instead of starting over from zero in another game. Especially when the thing that MADE me spend so much time in Genshin was the exploration, not the combat or the story cutscenes. Zenless is exclusively combat and cutscenes. There's nothing to keep me playing.  GlorpShitto Member Feb 6, 2024 943 They'll make some bucks off me when their Animal Crossing or the next Honkai title comes out.   Gavalanche Prophet of Regret Member Oct 21, 2021 25,619 It makes sense they would cannibalise one another.   Jawmuncher Crisis Dino Moderator Oct 25, 2017 44,699 Ibis Island ""They're dealing with cannibalization," said Sensor Tower analyst Sam Aune. "The launch of Zenless Zone Zero shows they may be approaching market saturation for what they can do with role-playing games."" Click to expand... Click to shrink... Can't say I'm surprised. A lot of the Hoyoverse stuff seems like it cannibalizes each other. Your biggest fans just aren't going to be able to spend time between Genshin, Star Rail, and ZZZ. It's a big reason why Fortnite has all their stuff as one "game" instead of making it all different titles. Arguably, I feel like Hoyoverse might be better off altering a future title into a "SP" experience as that has been going well for a lot of devs in China. With stuff like Stellar Blade and Black Myth Wukong. Yes, it won't be a Billion Dollar Pillar but it's a good way to get other parts of the market.  Slayven Never read a comic in his life Moderator Oct 25, 2017 102,085 I played it the first day at launch and noped out. Just didn't vibe at all with the none action parts of the game   Kusagari Member Oct 25, 2017 21,237 I stopped playing ZZZ because the actual combat is horribly repetitive and simply not fun (especially comparing it to something like Wuthering Waves). Which sucks, because I liked the world around it more than Genshin or even HSR (which is the only Hoyo I still play).   Kewlmyc Avenger Oct 25, 2017 29,524 How reliable is Sensor Tower again? I heard that it only covers mobile sales, which is only 1/3rd of the revenue. Either way, it makes sense. Genshin is a huge open world game and HSR is a space faring turn-based RPG. ZZZ on the other hand is set in one city and all it really has going for it is its action combat, which isn't the greatest on mobile, so everyone I know exclusively plays it on PC or PS5. I'm willing to believe it's performing the worse of the 3 big Hoyo games just by playing it and seeing the drastic changes over time. A big part of the game's presentation, TV mode, were you move about a square grid as a 2D avatar, was a huge portion of how the game's story was presented. As of 1.4, it has basically been scrapped in its entirety, replace with just taking your playable character and having them run around a barren map and occasionally press a button, in what is clearly a last-minute pivot away from TV Mode story presentation. The game as a whole seems to not have a focus. Hopefully 2.0 fixes that, as I want the game to succeed, as it has by far my favorite of the Hoyo game's combat. Also, let's be honest, even if it's not on par with the other 2 Hoyo games, it's still way more successful than the other non Hoyo gacha games.  Last edited: Today at 12:00 PM gundamkyoukai Member Oct 25, 2017 24,516 DNAbro said: "Zenless Zone Zero, its most recent foray, did not perform on par with the company's expectations, according to two people with knowledge of the company. In its launch quarter, it earned less than half its anime predecessors' opening quarter revenue, according to Sensor Tower." ""They're dealing with cannibalization," said Sensor Tower analyst Sam Aune. "The launch of Zenless Zone Zero shows they may be approaching market saturation for what they can do with role-playing games."" There is a *lot* in this article but this stuck out as news worthy. There is general downward trend that has been hitting the gacha industry, reported revenue on Sensor Tower has being going down month after month outside a few outliers. Though many ZZZ players expected it, this is the first confirmation that it is not meeting Hoyo's expectations for revenue. The article is worth reading through to see what Hoyo's goals with AI and how they rebooted their planned shooter again. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Sensor Tower is not best place to get data from since they don't count PC or console . ZZZ did not perform as good as hoyo want sure but we missing huge amount of data here.  Majunior Member Jun 20, 2019 2,111 Wuthering Waves and ZZZ released relatively close to each other. It's not just Hoyo games canabalizing each other. There's a couple of high profile gacha games coming up. It's about to get a lot more competive.  HockeyBird Member Oct 27, 2017 13,735 This happens all the time. Someone strikes gold and everyone, including the original people that struck gold first, rush in to get all of that money but eventually things become crowded as there aren't enough players or free time to invest in all of these games. You slowly but surely get diminishing returns.   NSESN ▲ Legend ▲ Member Oct 25, 2017 27,561 I noticed that at launch but somehow people were acting it was another huge success, weird Good luck with the AC clone, they gonna need it  OP OP DNAbro Member Oct 25, 2017 29,915 gundamkyoukai said: Sensor Tower is not best place to get data from since don't count PC or console . ZZZ did not perform as good as hoyo want sure but we missing huge amount of data here. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The "did not meet Hoyoverse's expectations" is not from Sensor Tower. They are a data point explaining why it may have missed those expectations.   Lightsong Member Nov 11, 2022 9,267 gundamkyoukai said: Sensor Tower is not best place to get data from since they don't count PC or console . ZZZ did not perform as good as hoyo want sure but we missing huge amount of data here. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's a trend I don't think is exclusive to mobile   Khanimus Avenger Oct 25, 2017 46,166 Greater Vancouver ""They're dealing with cannibalization," said Sensor Tower analyst Sam Aune. "The launch of Zenless Zone Zero shows they may be approaching market saturation for what they can do with role-playing games."" Click to expand... Click to shrink... Did they think they wouldn't?   Uzupedro Member May 16, 2020 13,823 Rio de Janeiro bruh Evidence of strain with this focus shift has already emerged. The company's ambitious open-world game, for which it recruited talent from top Western studios, has been rebooted more than twice, according to two employees. Current and former employees said the game, initially codenamed Project Shanghai and inspired by Grand Theft Auto, is more ambitious than Genshin Impact. Cai also led that development. US-based staff have been laid off due to challenges with coordinating projects across time zones, according to current and former employees.[ Click to expand... Click to shrink... also: Still, games are HoYoverse's first step. For its upcoming titles, the company has poached top developers who have worked at Western companies like Ubisoft Entertainment SA and Electronic Arts Inc. It's building new open-world and farming-simulator games, according to current and former employees. That'll be a necessary departure from the anime role-playing genre — to expand the potential audience — but a risky one as HoYoverse tests new ground in an industry with flat revenue, diminishing hit rates and increasingly higher costs. Click to expand... Click to shrink...   Rahfiki Member Oct 28, 2017 1,246 PlanetSmasher said: This is something I've been wondering about for a while. The fact that all three of Hoyoverse's games are SO structurally overlappy, with really the main differentiator just being the way their combat systems are expressed, just felt like something that had a distinct shelf life. You can't keep making the same game over and over again but with a different combat system before you run out of people willing to jump to the new one. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I feel like this is quietly compounded by the fact that to an extent this is true of almost all modern gacha games. Nowadays practically everyone is following their own version of the Genshin blueprint so they all feel somewhat samey. The market is starting to feel more than a little saturated with like 4-5 versions of the same game and more coming out really soon. Kusagari said: I stopped playing ZZZ because the actual combat is horribly repetitive and simply not fun (especially comparing it to something like Wuthering Waves). Which sucks, because I liked the world around it more than Genshin or even HSR (which is the only Hoyo I still play). Click to expand... Click to shrink... If that was your main complaint I highly recommend giving it another shot. There's a lot of fun depth in the combat but you really have to seek it out yourself wheras its more in your face in wuwa. I like both but imo wuwa is more repetitive at the high end cuz its more rotation-centric while zenless allows for a bit more flexibility.  Ashes of Dreams Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve Member May 22, 2020 19,518 It wasn't very fun imo. Combat was fine but the dungeon crawling mechanics were tedious. And the game starts with too many tutorials before you get into the swing of it. Just left me feeling kinda bored and impatient. And the combat wasn't THAT good in exchange. I feel that way about a lot of these games though. Genshin and Star Rail were the exceptions.  senj Member Nov 6, 2017 8,652 That seemed clear from how much people hated TV mode and how quickly they scrambled to remove it. The launch was rough as hell.   Zukkoyaki Member Oct 25, 2017 14,238 Only so many gooners out there   Akiba756 Member Oct 1, 2020 1,580 Sao Paolo, Brazil Khanimus said: Did they think they wouldn't? Click to expand... Click to shrink... They probably thought that since each game has a different gameplay style (Zelda like, Turn based RPG, action game) they would appeal to different audiences  gundamkyoukai Member Oct 25, 2017 24,516 DNAbro said: The "did not meet Hoyoverse's expectations" is not from Sensor Tower. They are a data point explaining why it may have missed those expectations. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I know that which is why i said it did not perform as good as hoyo wanted. But to know how much we missing to much data and Sensor Tower don't give us any best data . If that what showing as eg . Make sense they would branch out we been here about that for years to tell the truth .  Catchphrase Member Nov 28, 2023 2,264 They must have crazy expectations then, it's one of the highest earning gacha games.   freakipedia Member Mar 25, 2025 109 thank god   Pancracio17 ▲ Legend ▲ Avenger Oct 29, 2017 21,653 The gacha market is also the stickiest market of them all. Honestly, the upcoming big budget gachas have to be exceptional to get an audience at all.   Desma "This guy are sick" Member Oct 27, 2017 6,717 Yeah, I had a feeling they were cannibalizing on one another   show me your skeleton #1 Bugsnax Fan Member Oct 28, 2017 16,451 skeleton land it's real funny that companies around the world, throughout recent times, have yet to realise that audiences are only so big, with only so much money, and only so much time.   shadowman16 Member Oct 25, 2017 41,251 I mean people only have so many hours in the day to play... having 3? huge games all vying for a similar group of people's time (and wallets). Im not a fan of gatcha crap though, so I just stayed away from all of them, I dont have enough time to play the games I do have, and past Gacha shite games have scarred me meaning Im never touching another ever again.   Apollo Corrupted by Vengeance Avenger Oct 25, 2017 9,968 I would be more incentivized to spend if they actually had worthwhile packs. Rawdog topups do not feel good. Doing so for three games at once? Yeah, of course they're going to cannibalize each other.   MZZ Member Nov 2, 2017 5,431 It's the only one out of all of these games that I was really keen on trying just because of the artstyle, setting and overall vibe. This is the one I really I wish they would've made a traditional game out of. (And maybe perhaps tap a different audience for them)  Shryke Member Oct 26, 2017 3,336 Yeah I can't play all 3 hoyo games at once. It's why I dropped HSR. ZZZ is very manageable for me with Genshin.   OP OP DNAbro Member Oct 25, 2017 29,915 Aly Member Oct 27, 2017 15,485 Not a shock about the cannibilqzion. And on another note they probably alienated certain groups by leaning heavily into female fanservice compared to HSR and Genshin.   Bonefish Member Oct 28, 2017 5,065 They definitely do cannibalize each other as before where I used to just play Genshin and spend in it exclusively now it rotates with HSR and ZZZ and spending rotates with them too. ZZZ is easily the most fun of the three tho and they've definitely been making lots of adjustments since launch like removing the tv mode that really didn't land with players.  Lowblood Member Oct 30, 2017 6,257 Cannibalization should have been obvious. Time is just as limited a resource as money when it comes to players. I figured that shit out years ago. Lots of companies aren't realizing this (Microsoft, for one). And it's not just in games, either. Disney owns half of the movie industry now and they still don't know how to space out their releases.  PlanetSmasher The Abominable Showman Member Oct 25, 2017 132,223 Lowblood said: Cannibalization should have been obvious. Time is just as limited a resource as money when it comes to players. I figured that shit out years ago. Lots of companies aren't realizing this (Microsoft, for one). And it's not just in games, either. Disney owns half of the movie industry now and they still don't know how to space out their releases. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It turns out that when everybody is trying to make multiple Forever Games at a time, there are only so many people who are interested in playing all of them. Or any of them.  Busaiku Teyvat Traveler Member Oct 25, 2017 17,712 DNAbro said: The "did not meet Hoyoverse's expectations" is not from Sensor Tower. They are a data point explaining why it may have missed those expectations. Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's very likely that Zenless Zone Zero is doing below internal expectations, but the sourcing is sketch. It cites "two people with knowledge of the company". Not former employees or other insiders, but something incredibly nebulous. They don't explain what those expectations could be and what they determining the failure to meet them to.  danmaku Member Nov 5, 2017 3,471 "Otaku have a strong inner need to communicate with girls, yet are afraid to act," Liu said in one 2011 video, where he pitched a project involving "sweet, cute, kawaii pretty girls" to a room of potential investors with an excited energy. Otaku are "lonely and isolated people," and with the company's virtual characters, "we are here to meet such needs." HoYoverse released games on that theme for years that earned downloads, prizes and investors. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I know I shouldn't be surprised, but the blunt cynicism of corporate strategy always amazes me. Yes, these people have social problems, so let's exploit the fuck out of it. Reminds me of the Master of the Universe documentary, with a group of Mattel designers high-fiving each other because they found the right angle to get those dumb kids to buy their toys.  Aleh Member Oct 27, 2017 19,946 They should try an MMO   Catchphrase Member Nov 28, 2023 2,264 China is today the No.1 video game market internationally, generating an anticipated $50 billion from games this year, according to Niko Partners. HoYoverse is a comfortable titan in that market, though the company has its sights set on conquering more distant horizons. Click to expand... Click to shrink... That's pretty crazy  Acidote Member Oct 26, 2017 5,811 Cannibalizing themselves might also mean they're saturating the market for everyone else too.   Kenai Member Oct 26, 2017 8,417 I dropped off playing these with any regularity between the general lack of melanin + general lack of body types I enjoy seeing in my gachas. I'm sure I'm in the minority on my reasons, though. Lots of people are eventually going to move on from X Live service game to Y newer live service game, that's the nature of the beast I'm also pretty sure gacha spending is down in general. Day to day living hasn't gotten cheaper, and that was before Agent Orange got back in office  OP OP DNAbro Member Oct 25, 2017 29,915 I know personally I dropped HSR (other than logging in for some freebies every once in a while) because shit just takes up too much time. Genshin and ZZZ together already push it, any more gacha live services just feels like it's rotting the soul lol. I think there is a limit of 1 or 2 for most people who are even interested in live services. Gacha games also take up way more time than a lot of others.  Kouriozan Member Oct 25, 2017 24,645 People are already super invested in Genshin and Star Rail to add yet another F2P GaaS to their repertoire, MiHoYo must be very careful about what project to do next. If you do just dailies on all 3 games you already spent like 3 hours minimum doing what is basically chores for minimal rewards.  Kewlmyc Avenger Oct 25, 2017 29,524 All of this does make me wonder what Hoyoverse is thinking. They just announced a new Pokemon-like game last week, have an Animal Crossing game in the works apparently (unless that's the same as the Pokemon-like), and according to this have a modern GTA game in the works. If ALL of these are gacha games, which let's be honest they absolutely are, how sustainable is having all of these gacha games running at the same time that want you to log in every day and spend money every 3 weeks on a new banner? Not to mention all the new competition that now exist from other studios playing catch up (WuWa, Endfield, Anata, etc). I already play 3 gacha games myself, and even that is over doing it. I don't have time to play non gacha games at this point, and this is coming from someone who has no life (spouse or kids).  Last edited: Today at 1:06 PM evilromero Member Oct 27, 2017 4,261 Can only trap so many gambling addicts and gooners before the well runs dry.   Jubilant Duck Member Oct 21, 2022 9,155 We suspected it in the playerbase but it's interesting to hear confirmation. ZZZ remains a great vibe, with a fascinating world and really compelling characters you get to "hang out" with due to the game's structure, but it also has a lot about it that's very specific so might not gel well with everyone, especially if they already have "their" gacha game. I myself have ZZZ and Infinity Nikki and that's it. There is zero room in my life for another. And my roster of characters in ZZZ is approaching the point where it's well-rounded enough that I reckon I could take breaks in the future without feeling the FOMO, knowing I can catch up on the new story content later on.  Majunior Member Jun 20, 2019 2,111 Lowblood said: Cannibalization should have been obvious. Time is just as limited a resource as money when it comes to players. I figured that shit out years ago. Lots of companies aren't realizing this (Microsoft, for one). And it's not just in games, either. Disney owns half of the movie industry now and they still don't know how to space out their releases. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I feel like a lot of them do realize it, but they just think it's worth the risk for whatever reason. If they do end up finding their Genshin Impact, they end up with a boatload of money.