www.vox.com
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has a lot of controversial agenda items if he is confirmed as President Donald Trumps Health and Human Services secretary: pharmaceuticals, vaccines, fluoride in the water the list goes on. But he also plans to go after a facet of American life that doesnt have many full-throated defenders: school lunch. Ill get processed food out of school lunch immediately, Kennedy told Fox & Friends last fall. Sounds good, right? The National School Lunch Program serves nearly 30 million students every day. Its a vital source of nutrition for many of those kids, but that doesnt mean they enjoy it. School lunchs rubbery pizza and mystery meat have been a cultural punching bag for decades (who can forget Adam Sandlers classic Saturday Night Live sketch Lunch Lady Land?).But making school lunch healthier and tastier is harder than it might seem. And the history of those efforts is an interesting case study that speaks to the challenges Kennedy and the Make America Healthy Again movement are likely to encounter as they try to remake the countrys food system.This idea that you just buy food and you cook it and you give it to kids it should be simple. But it has never been simple, Jane Black, a food journalist who has hosted a podcast on the history of school lunch, told Today, Explained co-host Noel King. At the same time, school lunch is this weird little world, this complex upside down and backward world that is shaped by rules that were made for specific reasons at the time, but that when youre trying to change things, make it very difficult to untangle and do something that just seems like common sense.Black spoke with Today, Explained about the origins of school lunch, how it became the program we know today, and why it has proved resistant to change. A partial transcript of the conversation, edited for length and clarity, follows. You can listen to the full conversation on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find podcasts.Noel KingIf were going to tell a history of school lunch in the United States, where does it come from? Jane BlackSo school lunch was born in the Depression. There were a lot of hungry children, obviously, and they were these ad hoc programs at different schools where children were in need. The government helped out by providing money for this, but they also helped out by buying food from farmers because in the Depression they were struggling to sell the products that they needed. So the government would buy these things in order to stabilize prices so that farmers could make a living and take that food and give it to schools. The program became formalized in 1946. Its called the National School Lunch Act. It was signed by President Harry Truman. And he says this famous line when he signs the bill: No nation is healthier than its children or more prosperous than its farmers. And so I think thats such an important line because this program was never really only about children and nutrition. The program always had two masters. And the fact that the program was controlled and directed by the US Department of Agriculture, rather than, say, the Department of Education or the Department of Health and Human Services shows who is really driving this program. It was agriculture.Noel KingWhats on the plate? Back in the earliest days.Jane BlackYou know whats funny is its not that different from the way we picture school lunch right now. Its 1950s food. Its chicken. Its scoops of mashed potatoes that you take out with the ice cream scoop. Its green beans. Its bread rolls. In poorer schools, they may not have had a hot lunch. They may have a sandwich and an apple. But I think that what you need to know about school lunch at the beginning was that it was cooked in the schools. Okay. So its not processed food, a TV dinner thats brought in and just reheated and given to kids. There are lunch ladies. Theyre cooking it and theyre making it fresh and theyre serving it to the kids. My husband, who grew up in West Virginia, always tells stories about when he was in elementary school that you could smell the bread baking. And, you know, what a lovely memory.Noel KingYoure saying, like, within our lifetime, right? This is something that was done on-site. And so the food is what we would expect it to be. No real surprises. But then you report in your podcast that a change did come. And it was at a point in American history when a lot of things were changing.Jane BlackWhat happened? Reagan is elected president, and he comes in planning to slash budgets everywhere that he can. And school lunch is no exception. And so they cut the budgets. And the way that I often describe it to people is that schools are a lot like families. When a ton of your income disappears, what do you do? You cut back, right? You have to cut costs. And at this point in the 80s, the easiest way for them to do that is to get rid of the staff that are cooking. They have salaries. They also at that point had pensions that people didnt really want to pay anymore. So well get rid of the lunch ladies and we wont have to maintain all this equipment. We wont have to have stoves and refrigerators and walk-ins. Well just get these suddenly available big food companies to make all the food, package it, and bring it in. And that doesnt mean there was no cooking going on. But increasingly, you see preprepared foods and processed foods coming into schools because theyre cheaper.Noel KingSo we moved from the bread being baked in the kitchen in West Virginia to what?Jane BlackWell, I remember from the 80s, you know, there were tater tots, which I loved. There were sloppy Joes. And then Friday was pizza day. And it was not a triangle. It was a square. And it had, you know, tomato sauce. And then I always remember it was like the shredded cheese that was kind of sprinkled on. Like it had never moved. But we loved it. And so thats what there was. And thats what kids got used to seeing, not only at school but increasingly throughout society. We all start eating a lot more processed foods and a lot more fast food.Noel KingSo one of the problems that children have always had is that they cannot vote, but farmers can. And they do. And they do in great numbers. So at the same time that kids in school are no longer getting fresh bread, theyre getting cheese-speckled pizza. What is happening to the farmers who used to provide the schools with the produce?Jane BlackTheyre cutting budgets, so there is some lessening of funds for farmers, but they are very careful not to alienate the farmers because, as you say, farmers vote. So a good example of this, and its a story I really like to tell, is that in 1981, the United States found itself just awash in excess dairy. And theres an interesting reason for this, if youll allow me to digress briefly, which is that in the 70s, they discovered hormones for cattle. The hormones make the cattle produce more milk. Farmers are like, Great, we can produce more milk. But then they have all this milk and they say, Well, who are we going to sell this to?And in the early 80s, theres just so much milk sloshing around and cheese piling up. And there is actually a place in Kansas City called the Inland Dairy Storage Facility. And if you can imagine it, it is literally miles of caves that are dug out underneath the city. And in the early 80s, they were stacked to the ceiling with cheese. There were pictures of this that I saw in the New York Times. It was big news. And so the USDA says, well, what are we going to do with all of this? And they say, We will buy it and we will give it to schools. They do that soon, a couple of years later. They also say, you know, we just cant keep dealing with all this cheese, so lets get rid of some of the cattle, which they slaughter and turn into hamburger. And they say, what are we going to do with all this hamburger? I know. Lets give it to schools. So they do. And this is happening at the exact moment that the United States is descending into this anti-fat frenzy. And so, again, I bring this up because its just a very interesting example of, were helping the farmers. But are we helping the kids? Well, no, were dumping all this stuff with saturated fat on them at the exact time that doctors are telling us to eat less of it.Noel KingAnd so, again, what we have here is American kids who are seen as a convenient place to get rid of excess [food]. At what point, and Im hoping one comes, does somebody in a position of authority say, hey, maybe we should rethink what were doing with school lunch and actually make it work for kids versus everybody else?Jane BlackThe person who comes along and raises a ton of awareness about whats happening with school food is Michelle Obama. And so when Obama was elected in 2008, Michelle Obama, like many first ladies before her, chose an issue. Nancy Reagan had Just say no to drugs. And Laura Bush was very focused on literacy. And Michelle Obama is going to focus on healthy eating and healthy kids. And so a part of that is school lunch. And so youve got her bringing chefs to the White House, to the newly planted garden on the South Lawn. Shes out there talking about how important school lunch is to children, especially children who are hungry and getting some of their most important calories of the day [from school lunch], and how it is essential to make those meals as healthy as possible.Noel KingHow does her advocacy go over?Jane BlackSo it really depends who you talk to. Michelle Obama was a hero to so many liberals. Like I said, these events harvesting kale on the South Lawn, TV crews would show up and everybody was so excited about it. And a lot of people really loved the way she was making the case that we deserve this food and that this is a right for kids to eat well. On the other hand, you then have the opposition, the Republicans, who are not into this at all. To them, what Michelle Obama is doing is the ultimate nanny state. Shes saying, heres what you can eat. Im going to tell you what to eat. You know, parents shouldnt have control. Kids shouldnt have control. It was very much portrayed as if she was stepping on parents toes and telling them that they werent allowed to feed their kids. The other piece of it that I think is worth mentioning is that there was a big pushback partially from people in the school food world who were saying, hey, not so fast. If we give kids quinoa and roasted vegetables, are they going to eat them? They like pizza. The school lunch program is a program that has to make money, so they are reliant on it. So to be successful, they need a lot of kids to eat lunch. They need kids to want to eat pizza. So they were afraid that their programs would have big budgetary problems if they start serving all this different food and kids say no thanks.Noel KingAnd pizza, which kids and all of us do love, kind of becomes a bit of a flashpoint here. Remind us of this embarrassing chapter.Jane BlackYes, this was quite a moment. So one of the things that Michelle Obama discovers when she dives into school food nutrition rules is that one-eighth of a cup of tomato paste counts as half a vegetable. Which is weird. And theyre able to say, Hey, wait a minute, look at this. Something is wrong here. Pizza is a vegetable. Do you see how crazy this has become? What was really crazy was that she lost that battle. You know, the school lunch people, the food companies, the pizza makers get to members of Congress and theyre like, wait a minute, you are not going to say that pizza doesnt count as a vegetable. And they refused to let it happen. And I mean, just to complicate the story just a little bit, I did talk to some nutritionists and I think this is really interesting. They didnt really object to the fact that an eighth of a cup of tomato paste does give you some nutrients. In fact, they told me it is about the equivalent of half an orange in terms of vitamins and nutrients. Whats crazy, though, is just how quickly this was shut down. And I think it shows how powerful interests really have a hold on the school lunch program. And again, coming back to what we were talking about at the very beginning, how difficult it is to make common sense changes because there are so many people who have opinions.Noel KingAnd this, I would argue, is why RFK feels so potent. Whether you agree with everything he says, whether you understand there are some parts of this mans argument that are not grounded in science, there are other parts that are incredibly compelling, including that he would like to take ultra-processed foods out of the school lunch environment. Youve laid out how difficult it has been to get that done because of various interests at play. So can RFK actually do this?Jane BlackI think youre absolutely right that RFK has changed the framing on this in a really important way. Instead of making it about nutrition standards, hes made it about pushing back on powerful interests that are harming you or harming your children. Like, why are we letting this happen? Why are we letting them make money off of our health? Its shocking that nobody has figured out how to frame it that way before.Noel KingYes, it is.Jane BlackI mean, Ive had a number of conversations with people who have said, how did Democrats and in particular, Michelle Obama miss that? But is it possible? Its tricky for a couple of reasons. The first thing is that if you look at the Trump administration, the first Trump administration, they were not interested in fixing those are my air quotes to just shorthand what weve been talking about fixing school lunch. In fact, they made a very strong effort to roll back much of what Michelle Obama had tried to do. And they were doing it right up until Joe Biden came into office. So people in my nerdy school lunch world will look at it and say, does Trump really care about this? Are they really going to do this? [But] I think we are having a moment. I think there is a lot of energy behind the ideas that [RFK Jr.] is putting out there this new frame hes putting out there about companies and powerful interests taking advantage of us. And that appeals both to Democrats and to Republicans who feel it happening in this country. How do you translate that energy into real change is a big question, and I think thats why school lunch is a really good thing to talk about, because it gives us these things that seem like they should be simple but are actually not that simple. And in order to really change it, in order to pull ultra-processed foods out of school lunch, thats making over the entire menu, thats hiring thousands and thousands of people to cook in schools. Thats building thousands and thousands of school kitchens that cost a lot of money. So people have to put their money where their mouth is. And I think its the same thing when you look at a lot of the other areas that the budget movement is talking about You know, they talking about regulating ingredients that they put in foods. They need a staff of hundreds and hundreds of people at the FDA in order to begin doing that. And it would take years. So, again, a lot of these are good ideas, but putting them into practice, its a long haul.Youve read 1 article in the last monthHere at Vox, we're unwavering in our commitment to covering the issues that matter most to you threats to democracy, immigration, reproductive rights, the environment, and the rising polarization across this country.Our mission is to provide clear, accessible journalism that empowers you to stay informed and engaged in shaping our world. By becoming a Vox Member, you directly strengthen our ability to deliver in-depth, independent reporting that drives meaningful change.We rely on readers like you join us.Swati SharmaVox Editor-in-ChiefSee More: