• 50 Preppy Fonts with Rich & Fancy Vibes

    In this article:See more ▼Post may contain affiliate links which give us commissions at no cost to you.Preppy fonts capture that quintessential East Coast elite vibe – think Nantucket summers, yacht clubs, and monogrammed everything. These typefaces embody the perfect balance of tradition and refinement that makes preppy design so timeless and aspirational.
    But here’s the thing: not all fonts can pull off that coveted preppy aesthetic. The best preppy fonts have a certain je ne sais quoi – they’re classic without being stuffy, elegant without being pretentious, and refined without being inaccessible.
    In this comprehensive guide, we’ll explore the most gorgeous preppy fonts that’ll have your designs looking like they belong in the pages of Town & Country magazine. So grab your pearls and let’s dive into this typographic treasure trove!
    Psst... Did you know you can get unlimited downloads of 59,000+ fonts and millions of other creative assets for just /mo? Learn more »The Preppiest Fonts That Define 2025
    Let’s start with the crème de la crème – the fonts that truly embody that preppy spirit. I’ve curated this list based on their ability to channel that classic New England charm while remaining versatile enough for modern design needs.

    Gatsby Prelude

    Gatsby Prelude is an elegant and modern Art Deco font duo. It combines sans-serif characters with decorative elements, perfect for creating sophisticated designs with a touch of vintage glamour.Burtuqol

    Burtuqol is a vintage slab serif font that exudes a retro charm. Its bold, chunky serifs and aged appearance make it ideal for projects requiring a nostalgic or timeworn aesthetic.Gafler

    Gafler is a classy vintage serif font with decorative elements. It combines elegance with a touch of old-world charm, making it perfect for high-end branding and classic design projects.Get 300+ Fonts for FREEEnter your email to download our 100% free "Font Lover's Bundle". For commercial & personal use. No royalties. No fees. No attribution. 100% free to use anywhere.

    Kagnue

    Kagnue is a modern and classy serif font. It offers a fresh take on traditional serif typefaces, blending contemporary design with timeless elegance for versatile use in various design contexts.The Blendinroom

    The Blendinroom is a retro serif typeface featuring luxurious ligatures. Its vintage-inspired design and intricate details make it ideal for creating sophisticated, old-world aesthetics in design projects.MODER BULES

    MODER BULES is a playful sans-serif font with a fun, childlike appeal. Its quirky design makes it perfect for kids-oriented projects or Halloween-themed designs, adding a touch of whimsy to typography.Nickey Vintage

    Nickey Vintage is a decorative display font with a strong vintage flair. Its bold, eye-catching characters make it ideal for headlines, logos, and designs that require a striking retro aesthetic.Ladger

    Ladger is a casual script font that exudes luxury and elegance. Its flowing lines and graceful curves make it perfect for logo designs, high-end branding, and projects requiring a touch of sophistication.Hadnich

    Hadnich is a modern script font with a brush-like quality. Its versatile design makes it suitable for various applications, from signage to branding, offering a contemporary take on handwritten typography.Belly and Park

    Belly and Park is a condensed beauty classic font family featuring both serif and sans-serif styles. Its vintage-inspired design and narrow characters make it ideal for creating elegant, space-efficient layouts.Loubag

    Loubag is a modern retro font family encompassing sans-serif, serif, and decorative styles. Its bold, fashion-forward design makes it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and trendy branding materials.Petter And Sons

    Petter And Sons is a romantic beauty script font with decorative elements. Its elegant, flowing design makes it ideal for wedding invitations, luxury branding, and projects requiring a touch of refined beauty.Preteoria

    Preteoria is a modern cursive font with a sleek, contemporary feel. Its smooth curves and clean lines make it versatile for various design applications, from branding to digital media projects.Delauney

    Delauney is an Art Deco-inspired sans-serif font that captures the essence of the roaring twenties. Its geometric shapes and sleek lines make it perfect for creating designs with a bold, metropolitan flair.Amadi Vintage

    Amadi Vintage is a chic and beautiful serif font with a timeless appeal. Its elegant design and vintage-inspired details make it ideal for creating sophisticated, classic-looking designs and branding materials.LEDERSON

    LEDERSON is a vintage-inspired shadow font. Its weathered look and strong character make it perfect for designs requiring an authentic, aged aesthetic.Fancyou

    Fancyou is a versatile serif font with alternate characters. Its elegant design and customizable options make it suitable for a wide range of projects, from formal invitations to modern branding materials.Catterpie Font

    Catterpie is a handwritten script font that mimics natural handlettering. Its fluid, signature-like style makes it perfect for creating personal, authentic-looking designs and branding materials.Jemmy Wonder

    Jemmy Wonder is a Victorian-inspired serif font with a strong vintage character. Its ornate details and old-world charm make it ideal for creating designs with a classic, nostalgic feel.Monthey

    Monthey is a bold, elegant vintage display serif font. Its chunky characters and 70s-inspired design make it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and retro-themed branding materials.Madville

    Madville is a classy script font with a versatile design. Its elegant curves and smooth transitions make it suitable for a wide range of projects, from formal invitations to modern branding materials.Crowk

    Crowk is a luxury serif font with a timeless, elegant appeal. Its refined design and classic proportions make it ideal for high-end branding, editorial layouts, and sophisticated design projects.Peachy Fantasy

    Peachy Fantasy is an Art Nouveau-inspired display font with decorative elements. Its vintage charm and unique character make it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and artistic design projects.Cormier

    Cormier is a decorative sans-serif font with a strong artistic flair. Its unique design and fashion-forward aesthetic make it ideal for creating bold, attention-grabbing headlines and branding materials.Syntage

    Syntage is a decorative modern luxury font with both serif and ornamental elements. Its retro-inspired design and luxurious details make it perfect for high-end branding and sophisticated design projects.Jeniffer Selfies

    Jeniffer Selfies is a retro-inspired bold font combining sans-serif and script styles. Its playful design and vintage feel make it ideal for creating nostalgic, fun-loving designs and branding materials.The Rilman

    The Rilman is a ligature-rich rounded sans-serif font with a 90s-inspired design. Its retro charm and smooth edges make it perfect for creating playful, nostalgic designs and branding materials.Milky Croffle

    Milky Croffle is a classic beauty elegant serif font. Its refined design and timeless appeal make it ideal for creating sophisticated layouts, high-end branding, and projects requiring a touch of traditional elegance.
    What Makes a Font Feel Preppy?
    You might be wondering what exactly gives a font that unmistakable preppy vibe. After years of working with typography, I’ve identified several key characteristics that define the preppy aesthetic:
    Classic Serif Structure: Most preppy fonts are serifs, drawing inspiration from traditional typography used in prestigious publications and academic institutions. These serifs aren’t just decorative – they’re a nod to centuries of refined typographic tradition.
    Elegant Proportions: Preppy fonts tend to have well-balanced letterforms with moderate contrast between thick and thin strokes. They’re neither too delicate nor too bold – just perfectly poised, like a well-tailored blazer.
    Timeless Appeal: The best preppy fonts don’t scream “trendy.” Instead, they whisper “timeless.” They’re the typography equivalent of a strand of pearls – always appropriate, never out of style.
    Sophisticated Details: Look for subtle refinements in letterforms – graceful curves, well-crafted terminals, and thoughtful spacing. These details separate truly preppy fonts from their more pedestrian cousins.
    Heritage Inspiration: Many preppy fonts draw inspiration from historical typefaces used by Ivy League universities, prestigious publishing houses, and old-money families. This connection to tradition is what gives them their authentic preppy pedigree.
    Where to Use Preppy FontsPreppy fonts aren’t one-size-fits-all solutions, but when used appropriately, they’re absolutely magical. Here’s where they shine brightest:
    Wedding Invitations: Nothing says “elegant affair” quite like a beautifully chosen preppy serif. These fonts are perfect for formal invitations, save-the-dates, and wedding stationery that needs to feel sophisticated and timeless.
    Luxury Branding: Brands targeting affluent audiences or positioning themselves as premium often benefit from preppy typography. Think boutique hotels, high-end fashion, or artisanal goods.
    Editorial Design: Magazines, newsletters, and publications focusing on lifestyle, fashion, or culture can leverage preppy fonts to establish credibility and sophistication.
    Corporate Identity: Professional services, law firms, financial institutions, and consulting companies often choose preppy fonts to convey trustworthiness and establishment credibility.
    Academic Materials: Universities, prep schools, and educational institutions naturally gravitate toward preppy typography that reflects their traditional values and heritage.
    However, preppy fonts might not be the best choice for:
    Tech Startups: The traditional nature of preppy fonts can feel at odds with innovation and disruption. Modern sans serifs usually work better for tech companies.
    Children’s Brands: While elegant, preppy fonts might feel too formal for products targeting young children. Playful, rounded fonts are typically more appropriate.
    Casual Brands: If your brand personality is laid-back and approachable, overly formal preppy fonts might create distance between you and your audience.
    How to Choose the Perfect Preppy Font
    Selecting the right preppy font requires careful consideration of several factors. Here’s my tried-and-true process:
    Consider Your Audience: Are you designing for actual prep school alumni, or are you trying to capture that aspirational preppy aesthetic for a broader audience? Your target demographic should influence how traditional or accessible your font choice is.
    Evaluate the Context: A wedding invitation can handle more ornate details than a business card. Consider where your text will appear and how much personality the context can support.
    Test Readability: Preppy doesn’t mean hard to read. Always test your chosen font at various sizes to ensure it remains legible. Your typography should enhance communication, not hinder it.
    Think About Pairing: Will you be using this font alone or pairing it with others? Consider how your preppy serif will work alongside sans serifs for body text or script fonts for accents.
    Consider Your Medium: Some preppy fonts work beautifully in print but struggle on screens. Others are optimized for digital use but lose their charm in print. Choose accordingly.
    Pairing Preppy Fonts Like a Pro
    The magic of preppy typography often lies in thoughtful font pairing. Here are some winning combinations that never fail:
    Classic Serif + Clean Sans Serif: Pair your preppy serif headline font with a crisp, readable sans serif for body text. This creates hierarchy while maintaining sophistication.
    Traditional Serif + Script Accent: Use a refined script font sparingly for special elements like signatures or decorative text, balanced by a solid preppy serif for main content.
    Serif + Serif Variation: Sometimes pairing two serifs from the same family – perhaps a regular weight for body text and a bold condensed version for headlines – creates beautiful, cohesive designs.
    Remember, less is often more with preppy design. Stick to two or three fonts maximum, and let the inherent elegance of your chosen typefaces do the heavy lifting.
    The Psychology Behind Preppy Typography
    Understanding why preppy fonts work so well psychologically can help you use them more effectively. These typefaces tap into powerful associations:
    Trust and Reliability: The traditional nature of preppy fonts suggests stability and permanence. When people see these fonts, they subconsciously associate them with established institutions and time-tested values.
    Sophistication and Education: Preppy fonts are reminiscent of academic institutions and intellectual pursuits. They suggest refinement, education, and cultural awareness.
    Exclusivity and Status: Let’s be honest – part of the preppy aesthetic’s appeal is its association with privilege and exclusivity. These fonts can make designs feel more premium and aspirational.
    Quality and Craftsmanship: The careful attention to typographic detail in preppy fonts suggests similar attention to quality in whatever they’re representing.
    Modern Takes on Classic Preppy Style
    While preppy fonts are rooted in tradition, the best designers know how to give them contemporary flair. Here are some ways to modernize preppy typography:
    Unexpected Color Palettes: Pair traditional preppy fonts with modern colors. Think sage green and cream instead of navy and white, or soft blush tones for a fresh take.
    Generous White Space: Give your preppy fonts room to breathe with plenty of white space. This modern approach to layout keeps traditional fonts feeling fresh and uncluttered.
    Mixed Media Integration: Combine preppy typography with photography, illustrations, or graphic elements for a more contemporary feel while maintaining that sophisticated foundation.
    Strategic Contrast: Pair your refined preppy fonts with unexpected elements – maybe a bold geometric shape or modern photography – to create dynamic tension.
    Preppy Font Alternatives for Every Budget
    Not every preppy project has a premium font budget, and that’s okay! Here are some strategies for achieving that coveted preppy look without breaking the bank:
    Google Fonts Gems: Fonts like Playfair Display, Crimson Text, and Libre Baskerville offer sophisticated serif options that can work beautifully for preppy designs.
    Font Pairing Magic: Sometimes combining two free fonts thoughtfully can create a more expensive-looking result than using a single premium font poorly.
    Focus on Execution: A free font used with excellent spacing, hierarchy, and layout will always look better than an expensive font used carelessly.
    Common Preppy Font Mistakes to Avoid
    Even with the perfect preppy font, poor execution can ruin the effect. Here are the most common mistakes I see designers make:
    Overdoing the Decoration: Just because a font has elegant details doesn’t mean you need to add more flourishes. Let the typeface’s inherent sophistication speak for itself.
    Ignoring Hierarchy: Preppy design relies on clear, elegant hierarchy. Don’t make everything the same size or weight – create visual flow through thoughtful typography scaling.
    Poor Spacing: Cramped text kills the elegant feel of preppy fonts. Give your typography generous leading and appropriate margins.
    Wrong Context: Using an ultra-formal preppy font for a casual pizza restaurant’s menu will feel jarring and inappropriate. Match your font choice to your content and audience.
    The Future of Preppy Typography
    As we look ahead in 2025, preppy fonts continue to evolve while maintaining their classic appeal. We’re seeing interesting trends emerge:
    Variable Font Technology: Modern preppy fonts are increasingly available as variable fonts, allowing designers to fine-tune weight, width, and optical size for perfect customization.
    Screen Optimization: Classic preppy fonts are being redrawn and optimized for digital screens without losing their traditional charm.
    Inclusive Preppy: Designers are expanding the preppy aesthetic beyond its traditional boundaries, creating fonts that maintain sophistication while feeling more accessible and diverse.
    Sustainable Design: The timeless nature of preppy fonts aligns perfectly with sustainable design principles – these typefaces won’t look dated next year, making them environmentally responsible choices.
    Conclusion: Embracing Timeless Elegance
    Preppy fonts represent more than just letterforms – they’re a gateway to timeless elegance and sophisticated communication. Whether you’re designing wedding invitations for a Martha’s Vineyard ceremony or creating brand identity for a boutique law firm, the right preppy font can elevate your work from merely professional to genuinely distinguished.
    The beauty of preppy typography lies in its ability to feel both traditional and fresh, formal yet approachable. These fonts have stood the test of time because they tap into something fundamental about how we perceive quality, tradition, and sophistication.
    As you explore the world of preppy fonts, remember that the best typography choices support your message rather than overshadowing it. Choose fonts that enhance your content’s inherent qualities and speak to your audience’s aspirations and values.
    So whether you’re channeling that old-money aesthetic or simply want to add a touch of refined elegance to your designs, preppy fonts offer a wealth of possibilities. After all, good typography, like good manners, never goes out of style.
    #preppy #fonts #with #rich #ampamp
    50 Preppy Fonts with Rich & Fancy Vibes
    In this article:See more ▼Post may contain affiliate links which give us commissions at no cost to you.Preppy fonts capture that quintessential East Coast elite vibe – think Nantucket summers, yacht clubs, and monogrammed everything. These typefaces embody the perfect balance of tradition and refinement that makes preppy design so timeless and aspirational. But here’s the thing: not all fonts can pull off that coveted preppy aesthetic. The best preppy fonts have a certain je ne sais quoi – they’re classic without being stuffy, elegant without being pretentious, and refined without being inaccessible. In this comprehensive guide, we’ll explore the most gorgeous preppy fonts that’ll have your designs looking like they belong in the pages of Town & Country magazine. So grab your pearls and let’s dive into this typographic treasure trove! 👋 Psst... Did you know you can get unlimited downloads of 59,000+ fonts and millions of other creative assets for just /mo? Learn more »The Preppiest Fonts That Define 2025 Let’s start with the crème de la crème – the fonts that truly embody that preppy spirit. I’ve curated this list based on their ability to channel that classic New England charm while remaining versatile enough for modern design needs. Gatsby Prelude Gatsby Prelude is an elegant and modern Art Deco font duo. It combines sans-serif characters with decorative elements, perfect for creating sophisticated designs with a touch of vintage glamour.Burtuqol Burtuqol is a vintage slab serif font that exudes a retro charm. Its bold, chunky serifs and aged appearance make it ideal for projects requiring a nostalgic or timeworn aesthetic.Gafler Gafler is a classy vintage serif font with decorative elements. It combines elegance with a touch of old-world charm, making it perfect for high-end branding and classic design projects.Get 300+ Fonts for FREEEnter your email to download our 100% free "Font Lover's Bundle". For commercial & personal use. No royalties. No fees. No attribution. 100% free to use anywhere. Kagnue Kagnue is a modern and classy serif font. It offers a fresh take on traditional serif typefaces, blending contemporary design with timeless elegance for versatile use in various design contexts.The Blendinroom The Blendinroom is a retro serif typeface featuring luxurious ligatures. Its vintage-inspired design and intricate details make it ideal for creating sophisticated, old-world aesthetics in design projects.MODER BULES MODER BULES is a playful sans-serif font with a fun, childlike appeal. Its quirky design makes it perfect for kids-oriented projects or Halloween-themed designs, adding a touch of whimsy to typography.Nickey Vintage Nickey Vintage is a decorative display font with a strong vintage flair. Its bold, eye-catching characters make it ideal for headlines, logos, and designs that require a striking retro aesthetic.Ladger Ladger is a casual script font that exudes luxury and elegance. Its flowing lines and graceful curves make it perfect for logo designs, high-end branding, and projects requiring a touch of sophistication.Hadnich Hadnich is a modern script font with a brush-like quality. Its versatile design makes it suitable for various applications, from signage to branding, offering a contemporary take on handwritten typography.Belly and Park Belly and Park is a condensed beauty classic font family featuring both serif and sans-serif styles. Its vintage-inspired design and narrow characters make it ideal for creating elegant, space-efficient layouts.Loubag Loubag is a modern retro font family encompassing sans-serif, serif, and decorative styles. Its bold, fashion-forward design makes it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and trendy branding materials.Petter And Sons Petter And Sons is a romantic beauty script font with decorative elements. Its elegant, flowing design makes it ideal for wedding invitations, luxury branding, and projects requiring a touch of refined beauty.Preteoria Preteoria is a modern cursive font with a sleek, contemporary feel. Its smooth curves and clean lines make it versatile for various design applications, from branding to digital media projects.Delauney Delauney is an Art Deco-inspired sans-serif font that captures the essence of the roaring twenties. Its geometric shapes and sleek lines make it perfect for creating designs with a bold, metropolitan flair.Amadi Vintage Amadi Vintage is a chic and beautiful serif font with a timeless appeal. Its elegant design and vintage-inspired details make it ideal for creating sophisticated, classic-looking designs and branding materials.LEDERSON LEDERSON is a vintage-inspired shadow font. Its weathered look and strong character make it perfect for designs requiring an authentic, aged aesthetic.Fancyou Fancyou is a versatile serif font with alternate characters. Its elegant design and customizable options make it suitable for a wide range of projects, from formal invitations to modern branding materials.Catterpie Font Catterpie is a handwritten script font that mimics natural handlettering. Its fluid, signature-like style makes it perfect for creating personal, authentic-looking designs and branding materials.Jemmy Wonder Jemmy Wonder is a Victorian-inspired serif font with a strong vintage character. Its ornate details and old-world charm make it ideal for creating designs with a classic, nostalgic feel.Monthey Monthey is a bold, elegant vintage display serif font. Its chunky characters and 70s-inspired design make it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and retro-themed branding materials.Madville Madville is a classy script font with a versatile design. Its elegant curves and smooth transitions make it suitable for a wide range of projects, from formal invitations to modern branding materials.Crowk Crowk is a luxury serif font with a timeless, elegant appeal. Its refined design and classic proportions make it ideal for high-end branding, editorial layouts, and sophisticated design projects.Peachy Fantasy Peachy Fantasy is an Art Nouveau-inspired display font with decorative elements. Its vintage charm and unique character make it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and artistic design projects.Cormier Cormier is a decorative sans-serif font with a strong artistic flair. Its unique design and fashion-forward aesthetic make it ideal for creating bold, attention-grabbing headlines and branding materials.Syntage Syntage is a decorative modern luxury font with both serif and ornamental elements. Its retro-inspired design and luxurious details make it perfect for high-end branding and sophisticated design projects.Jeniffer Selfies Jeniffer Selfies is a retro-inspired bold font combining sans-serif and script styles. Its playful design and vintage feel make it ideal for creating nostalgic, fun-loving designs and branding materials.The Rilman The Rilman is a ligature-rich rounded sans-serif font with a 90s-inspired design. Its retro charm and smooth edges make it perfect for creating playful, nostalgic designs and branding materials.Milky Croffle Milky Croffle is a classic beauty elegant serif font. Its refined design and timeless appeal make it ideal for creating sophisticated layouts, high-end branding, and projects requiring a touch of traditional elegance. What Makes a Font Feel Preppy? You might be wondering what exactly gives a font that unmistakable preppy vibe. After years of working with typography, I’ve identified several key characteristics that define the preppy aesthetic: Classic Serif Structure: Most preppy fonts are serifs, drawing inspiration from traditional typography used in prestigious publications and academic institutions. These serifs aren’t just decorative – they’re a nod to centuries of refined typographic tradition. Elegant Proportions: Preppy fonts tend to have well-balanced letterforms with moderate contrast between thick and thin strokes. They’re neither too delicate nor too bold – just perfectly poised, like a well-tailored blazer. Timeless Appeal: The best preppy fonts don’t scream “trendy.” Instead, they whisper “timeless.” They’re the typography equivalent of a strand of pearls – always appropriate, never out of style. Sophisticated Details: Look for subtle refinements in letterforms – graceful curves, well-crafted terminals, and thoughtful spacing. These details separate truly preppy fonts from their more pedestrian cousins. Heritage Inspiration: Many preppy fonts draw inspiration from historical typefaces used by Ivy League universities, prestigious publishing houses, and old-money families. This connection to tradition is what gives them their authentic preppy pedigree. Where to Use Preppy FontsPreppy fonts aren’t one-size-fits-all solutions, but when used appropriately, they’re absolutely magical. Here’s where they shine brightest: Wedding Invitations: Nothing says “elegant affair” quite like a beautifully chosen preppy serif. These fonts are perfect for formal invitations, save-the-dates, and wedding stationery that needs to feel sophisticated and timeless. Luxury Branding: Brands targeting affluent audiences or positioning themselves as premium often benefit from preppy typography. Think boutique hotels, high-end fashion, or artisanal goods. Editorial Design: Magazines, newsletters, and publications focusing on lifestyle, fashion, or culture can leverage preppy fonts to establish credibility and sophistication. Corporate Identity: Professional services, law firms, financial institutions, and consulting companies often choose preppy fonts to convey trustworthiness and establishment credibility. Academic Materials: Universities, prep schools, and educational institutions naturally gravitate toward preppy typography that reflects their traditional values and heritage. However, preppy fonts might not be the best choice for: Tech Startups: The traditional nature of preppy fonts can feel at odds with innovation and disruption. Modern sans serifs usually work better for tech companies. Children’s Brands: While elegant, preppy fonts might feel too formal for products targeting young children. Playful, rounded fonts are typically more appropriate. Casual Brands: If your brand personality is laid-back and approachable, overly formal preppy fonts might create distance between you and your audience. How to Choose the Perfect Preppy Font Selecting the right preppy font requires careful consideration of several factors. Here’s my tried-and-true process: Consider Your Audience: Are you designing for actual prep school alumni, or are you trying to capture that aspirational preppy aesthetic for a broader audience? Your target demographic should influence how traditional or accessible your font choice is. Evaluate the Context: A wedding invitation can handle more ornate details than a business card. Consider where your text will appear and how much personality the context can support. Test Readability: Preppy doesn’t mean hard to read. Always test your chosen font at various sizes to ensure it remains legible. Your typography should enhance communication, not hinder it. Think About Pairing: Will you be using this font alone or pairing it with others? Consider how your preppy serif will work alongside sans serifs for body text or script fonts for accents. Consider Your Medium: Some preppy fonts work beautifully in print but struggle on screens. Others are optimized for digital use but lose their charm in print. Choose accordingly. Pairing Preppy Fonts Like a Pro The magic of preppy typography often lies in thoughtful font pairing. Here are some winning combinations that never fail: Classic Serif + Clean Sans Serif: Pair your preppy serif headline font with a crisp, readable sans serif for body text. This creates hierarchy while maintaining sophistication. Traditional Serif + Script Accent: Use a refined script font sparingly for special elements like signatures or decorative text, balanced by a solid preppy serif for main content. Serif + Serif Variation: Sometimes pairing two serifs from the same family – perhaps a regular weight for body text and a bold condensed version for headlines – creates beautiful, cohesive designs. Remember, less is often more with preppy design. Stick to two or three fonts maximum, and let the inherent elegance of your chosen typefaces do the heavy lifting. The Psychology Behind Preppy Typography Understanding why preppy fonts work so well psychologically can help you use them more effectively. These typefaces tap into powerful associations: Trust and Reliability: The traditional nature of preppy fonts suggests stability and permanence. When people see these fonts, they subconsciously associate them with established institutions and time-tested values. Sophistication and Education: Preppy fonts are reminiscent of academic institutions and intellectual pursuits. They suggest refinement, education, and cultural awareness. Exclusivity and Status: Let’s be honest – part of the preppy aesthetic’s appeal is its association with privilege and exclusivity. These fonts can make designs feel more premium and aspirational. Quality and Craftsmanship: The careful attention to typographic detail in preppy fonts suggests similar attention to quality in whatever they’re representing. Modern Takes on Classic Preppy Style While preppy fonts are rooted in tradition, the best designers know how to give them contemporary flair. Here are some ways to modernize preppy typography: Unexpected Color Palettes: Pair traditional preppy fonts with modern colors. Think sage green and cream instead of navy and white, or soft blush tones for a fresh take. Generous White Space: Give your preppy fonts room to breathe with plenty of white space. This modern approach to layout keeps traditional fonts feeling fresh and uncluttered. Mixed Media Integration: Combine preppy typography with photography, illustrations, or graphic elements for a more contemporary feel while maintaining that sophisticated foundation. Strategic Contrast: Pair your refined preppy fonts with unexpected elements – maybe a bold geometric shape or modern photography – to create dynamic tension. Preppy Font Alternatives for Every Budget Not every preppy project has a premium font budget, and that’s okay! Here are some strategies for achieving that coveted preppy look without breaking the bank: Google Fonts Gems: Fonts like Playfair Display, Crimson Text, and Libre Baskerville offer sophisticated serif options that can work beautifully for preppy designs. Font Pairing Magic: Sometimes combining two free fonts thoughtfully can create a more expensive-looking result than using a single premium font poorly. Focus on Execution: A free font used with excellent spacing, hierarchy, and layout will always look better than an expensive font used carelessly. Common Preppy Font Mistakes to Avoid Even with the perfect preppy font, poor execution can ruin the effect. Here are the most common mistakes I see designers make: Overdoing the Decoration: Just because a font has elegant details doesn’t mean you need to add more flourishes. Let the typeface’s inherent sophistication speak for itself. Ignoring Hierarchy: Preppy design relies on clear, elegant hierarchy. Don’t make everything the same size or weight – create visual flow through thoughtful typography scaling. Poor Spacing: Cramped text kills the elegant feel of preppy fonts. Give your typography generous leading and appropriate margins. Wrong Context: Using an ultra-formal preppy font for a casual pizza restaurant’s menu will feel jarring and inappropriate. Match your font choice to your content and audience. The Future of Preppy Typography As we look ahead in 2025, preppy fonts continue to evolve while maintaining their classic appeal. We’re seeing interesting trends emerge: Variable Font Technology: Modern preppy fonts are increasingly available as variable fonts, allowing designers to fine-tune weight, width, and optical size for perfect customization. Screen Optimization: Classic preppy fonts are being redrawn and optimized for digital screens without losing their traditional charm. Inclusive Preppy: Designers are expanding the preppy aesthetic beyond its traditional boundaries, creating fonts that maintain sophistication while feeling more accessible and diverse. Sustainable Design: The timeless nature of preppy fonts aligns perfectly with sustainable design principles – these typefaces won’t look dated next year, making them environmentally responsible choices. Conclusion: Embracing Timeless Elegance Preppy fonts represent more than just letterforms – they’re a gateway to timeless elegance and sophisticated communication. Whether you’re designing wedding invitations for a Martha’s Vineyard ceremony or creating brand identity for a boutique law firm, the right preppy font can elevate your work from merely professional to genuinely distinguished. The beauty of preppy typography lies in its ability to feel both traditional and fresh, formal yet approachable. These fonts have stood the test of time because they tap into something fundamental about how we perceive quality, tradition, and sophistication. As you explore the world of preppy fonts, remember that the best typography choices support your message rather than overshadowing it. Choose fonts that enhance your content’s inherent qualities and speak to your audience’s aspirations and values. So whether you’re channeling that old-money aesthetic or simply want to add a touch of refined elegance to your designs, preppy fonts offer a wealth of possibilities. After all, good typography, like good manners, never goes out of style. #preppy #fonts #with #rich #ampamp
    DESIGNWORKLIFE.COM
    50 Preppy Fonts with Rich & Fancy Vibes
    In this article:See more ▼Post may contain affiliate links which give us commissions at no cost to you.Preppy fonts capture that quintessential East Coast elite vibe – think Nantucket summers, yacht clubs, and monogrammed everything. These typefaces embody the perfect balance of tradition and refinement that makes preppy design so timeless and aspirational. But here’s the thing: not all fonts can pull off that coveted preppy aesthetic. The best preppy fonts have a certain je ne sais quoi – they’re classic without being stuffy, elegant without being pretentious, and refined without being inaccessible. In this comprehensive guide, we’ll explore the most gorgeous preppy fonts that’ll have your designs looking like they belong in the pages of Town & Country magazine. So grab your pearls and let’s dive into this typographic treasure trove! 👋 Psst... Did you know you can get unlimited downloads of 59,000+ fonts and millions of other creative assets for just $16.95/mo? Learn more »The Preppiest Fonts That Define 2025 Let’s start with the crème de la crème – the fonts that truly embody that preppy spirit. I’ve curated this list based on their ability to channel that classic New England charm while remaining versatile enough for modern design needs. Gatsby Prelude Gatsby Prelude is an elegant and modern Art Deco font duo. It combines sans-serif characters with decorative elements, perfect for creating sophisticated designs with a touch of vintage glamour.Burtuqol Burtuqol is a vintage slab serif font that exudes a retro charm. Its bold, chunky serifs and aged appearance make it ideal for projects requiring a nostalgic or timeworn aesthetic.Gafler Gafler is a classy vintage serif font with decorative elements. It combines elegance with a touch of old-world charm, making it perfect for high-end branding and classic design projects.Get 300+ Fonts for FREEEnter your email to download our 100% free "Font Lover's Bundle". For commercial & personal use. No royalties. No fees. No attribution. 100% free to use anywhere. Kagnue Kagnue is a modern and classy serif font. It offers a fresh take on traditional serif typefaces, blending contemporary design with timeless elegance for versatile use in various design contexts.The Blendinroom The Blendinroom is a retro serif typeface featuring luxurious ligatures. Its vintage-inspired design and intricate details make it ideal for creating sophisticated, old-world aesthetics in design projects.MODER BULES MODER BULES is a playful sans-serif font with a fun, childlike appeal. Its quirky design makes it perfect for kids-oriented projects or Halloween-themed designs, adding a touch of whimsy to typography.Nickey Vintage Nickey Vintage is a decorative display font with a strong vintage flair. Its bold, eye-catching characters make it ideal for headlines, logos, and designs that require a striking retro aesthetic.Ladger Ladger is a casual script font that exudes luxury and elegance. Its flowing lines and graceful curves make it perfect for logo designs, high-end branding, and projects requiring a touch of sophistication.Hadnich Hadnich is a modern script font with a brush-like quality. Its versatile design makes it suitable for various applications, from signage to branding, offering a contemporary take on handwritten typography.Belly and Park Belly and Park is a condensed beauty classic font family featuring both serif and sans-serif styles. Its vintage-inspired design and narrow characters make it ideal for creating elegant, space-efficient layouts.Loubag Loubag is a modern retro font family encompassing sans-serif, serif, and decorative styles. Its bold, fashion-forward design makes it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and trendy branding materials.Petter And Sons Petter And Sons is a romantic beauty script font with decorative elements. Its elegant, flowing design makes it ideal for wedding invitations, luxury branding, and projects requiring a touch of refined beauty.Preteoria Preteoria is a modern cursive font with a sleek, contemporary feel. Its smooth curves and clean lines make it versatile for various design applications, from branding to digital media projects.Delauney Delauney is an Art Deco-inspired sans-serif font that captures the essence of the roaring twenties. Its geometric shapes and sleek lines make it perfect for creating designs with a bold, metropolitan flair.Amadi Vintage Amadi Vintage is a chic and beautiful serif font with a timeless appeal. Its elegant design and vintage-inspired details make it ideal for creating sophisticated, classic-looking designs and branding materials.LEDERSON LEDERSON is a vintage-inspired shadow font. Its weathered look and strong character make it perfect for designs requiring an authentic, aged aesthetic.Fancyou Fancyou is a versatile serif font with alternate characters. Its elegant design and customizable options make it suitable for a wide range of projects, from formal invitations to modern branding materials.Catterpie Font Catterpie is a handwritten script font that mimics natural handlettering. Its fluid, signature-like style makes it perfect for creating personal, authentic-looking designs and branding materials.Jemmy Wonder Jemmy Wonder is a Victorian-inspired serif font with a strong vintage character. Its ornate details and old-world charm make it ideal for creating designs with a classic, nostalgic feel.Monthey Monthey is a bold, elegant vintage display serif font. Its chunky characters and 70s-inspired design make it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and retro-themed branding materials.Madville Madville is a classy script font with a versatile design. Its elegant curves and smooth transitions make it suitable for a wide range of projects, from formal invitations to modern branding materials.Crowk Crowk is a luxury serif font with a timeless, elegant appeal. Its refined design and classic proportions make it ideal for high-end branding, editorial layouts, and sophisticated design projects.Peachy Fantasy Peachy Fantasy is an Art Nouveau-inspired display font with decorative elements. Its vintage charm and unique character make it perfect for creating eye-catching headlines and artistic design projects.Cormier Cormier is a decorative sans-serif font with a strong artistic flair. Its unique design and fashion-forward aesthetic make it ideal for creating bold, attention-grabbing headlines and branding materials.Syntage Syntage is a decorative modern luxury font with both serif and ornamental elements. Its retro-inspired design and luxurious details make it perfect for high-end branding and sophisticated design projects.Jeniffer Selfies Jeniffer Selfies is a retro-inspired bold font combining sans-serif and script styles. Its playful design and vintage feel make it ideal for creating nostalgic, fun-loving designs and branding materials.The Rilman The Rilman is a ligature-rich rounded sans-serif font with a 90s-inspired design. Its retro charm and smooth edges make it perfect for creating playful, nostalgic designs and branding materials.Milky Croffle Milky Croffle is a classic beauty elegant serif font. Its refined design and timeless appeal make it ideal for creating sophisticated layouts, high-end branding, and projects requiring a touch of traditional elegance. What Makes a Font Feel Preppy? You might be wondering what exactly gives a font that unmistakable preppy vibe. After years of working with typography, I’ve identified several key characteristics that define the preppy aesthetic: Classic Serif Structure: Most preppy fonts are serifs, drawing inspiration from traditional typography used in prestigious publications and academic institutions. These serifs aren’t just decorative – they’re a nod to centuries of refined typographic tradition. Elegant Proportions: Preppy fonts tend to have well-balanced letterforms with moderate contrast between thick and thin strokes. They’re neither too delicate nor too bold – just perfectly poised, like a well-tailored blazer. Timeless Appeal: The best preppy fonts don’t scream “trendy.” Instead, they whisper “timeless.” They’re the typography equivalent of a strand of pearls – always appropriate, never out of style. Sophisticated Details: Look for subtle refinements in letterforms – graceful curves, well-crafted terminals, and thoughtful spacing. These details separate truly preppy fonts from their more pedestrian cousins. Heritage Inspiration: Many preppy fonts draw inspiration from historical typefaces used by Ivy League universities, prestigious publishing houses, and old-money families. This connection to tradition is what gives them their authentic preppy pedigree. Where to Use Preppy Fonts (And Where Not To) Preppy fonts aren’t one-size-fits-all solutions, but when used appropriately, they’re absolutely magical. Here’s where they shine brightest: Wedding Invitations: Nothing says “elegant affair” quite like a beautifully chosen preppy serif. These fonts are perfect for formal invitations, save-the-dates, and wedding stationery that needs to feel sophisticated and timeless. Luxury Branding: Brands targeting affluent audiences or positioning themselves as premium often benefit from preppy typography. Think boutique hotels, high-end fashion, or artisanal goods. Editorial Design: Magazines, newsletters, and publications focusing on lifestyle, fashion, or culture can leverage preppy fonts to establish credibility and sophistication. Corporate Identity: Professional services, law firms, financial institutions, and consulting companies often choose preppy fonts to convey trustworthiness and establishment credibility. Academic Materials: Universities, prep schools, and educational institutions naturally gravitate toward preppy typography that reflects their traditional values and heritage. However, preppy fonts might not be the best choice for: Tech Startups: The traditional nature of preppy fonts can feel at odds with innovation and disruption. Modern sans serifs usually work better for tech companies. Children’s Brands: While elegant, preppy fonts might feel too formal for products targeting young children. Playful, rounded fonts are typically more appropriate. Casual Brands: If your brand personality is laid-back and approachable, overly formal preppy fonts might create distance between you and your audience. How to Choose the Perfect Preppy Font Selecting the right preppy font requires careful consideration of several factors. Here’s my tried-and-true process: Consider Your Audience: Are you designing for actual prep school alumni, or are you trying to capture that aspirational preppy aesthetic for a broader audience? Your target demographic should influence how traditional or accessible your font choice is. Evaluate the Context: A wedding invitation can handle more ornate details than a business card. Consider where your text will appear and how much personality the context can support. Test Readability: Preppy doesn’t mean hard to read. Always test your chosen font at various sizes to ensure it remains legible. Your typography should enhance communication, not hinder it. Think About Pairing: Will you be using this font alone or pairing it with others? Consider how your preppy serif will work alongside sans serifs for body text or script fonts for accents. Consider Your Medium: Some preppy fonts work beautifully in print but struggle on screens. Others are optimized for digital use but lose their charm in print. Choose accordingly. Pairing Preppy Fonts Like a Pro The magic of preppy typography often lies in thoughtful font pairing. Here are some winning combinations that never fail: Classic Serif + Clean Sans Serif: Pair your preppy serif headline font with a crisp, readable sans serif for body text. This creates hierarchy while maintaining sophistication. Traditional Serif + Script Accent: Use a refined script font sparingly for special elements like signatures or decorative text, balanced by a solid preppy serif for main content. Serif + Serif Variation: Sometimes pairing two serifs from the same family – perhaps a regular weight for body text and a bold condensed version for headlines – creates beautiful, cohesive designs. Remember, less is often more with preppy design. Stick to two or three fonts maximum, and let the inherent elegance of your chosen typefaces do the heavy lifting. The Psychology Behind Preppy Typography Understanding why preppy fonts work so well psychologically can help you use them more effectively. These typefaces tap into powerful associations: Trust and Reliability: The traditional nature of preppy fonts suggests stability and permanence. When people see these fonts, they subconsciously associate them with established institutions and time-tested values. Sophistication and Education: Preppy fonts are reminiscent of academic institutions and intellectual pursuits. They suggest refinement, education, and cultural awareness. Exclusivity and Status: Let’s be honest – part of the preppy aesthetic’s appeal is its association with privilege and exclusivity. These fonts can make designs feel more premium and aspirational. Quality and Craftsmanship: The careful attention to typographic detail in preppy fonts suggests similar attention to quality in whatever they’re representing. Modern Takes on Classic Preppy Style While preppy fonts are rooted in tradition, the best designers know how to give them contemporary flair. Here are some ways to modernize preppy typography: Unexpected Color Palettes: Pair traditional preppy fonts with modern colors. Think sage green and cream instead of navy and white, or soft blush tones for a fresh take. Generous White Space: Give your preppy fonts room to breathe with plenty of white space. This modern approach to layout keeps traditional fonts feeling fresh and uncluttered. Mixed Media Integration: Combine preppy typography with photography, illustrations, or graphic elements for a more contemporary feel while maintaining that sophisticated foundation. Strategic Contrast: Pair your refined preppy fonts with unexpected elements – maybe a bold geometric shape or modern photography – to create dynamic tension. Preppy Font Alternatives for Every Budget Not every preppy project has a premium font budget, and that’s okay! Here are some strategies for achieving that coveted preppy look without breaking the bank: Google Fonts Gems: Fonts like Playfair Display, Crimson Text, and Libre Baskerville offer sophisticated serif options that can work beautifully for preppy designs. Font Pairing Magic: Sometimes combining two free fonts thoughtfully can create a more expensive-looking result than using a single premium font poorly. Focus on Execution: A free font used with excellent spacing, hierarchy, and layout will always look better than an expensive font used carelessly. Common Preppy Font Mistakes to Avoid Even with the perfect preppy font, poor execution can ruin the effect. Here are the most common mistakes I see designers make: Overdoing the Decoration: Just because a font has elegant details doesn’t mean you need to add more flourishes. Let the typeface’s inherent sophistication speak for itself. Ignoring Hierarchy: Preppy design relies on clear, elegant hierarchy. Don’t make everything the same size or weight – create visual flow through thoughtful typography scaling. Poor Spacing: Cramped text kills the elegant feel of preppy fonts. Give your typography generous leading and appropriate margins. Wrong Context: Using an ultra-formal preppy font for a casual pizza restaurant’s menu will feel jarring and inappropriate. Match your font choice to your content and audience. The Future of Preppy Typography As we look ahead in 2025, preppy fonts continue to evolve while maintaining their classic appeal. We’re seeing interesting trends emerge: Variable Font Technology: Modern preppy fonts are increasingly available as variable fonts, allowing designers to fine-tune weight, width, and optical size for perfect customization. Screen Optimization: Classic preppy fonts are being redrawn and optimized for digital screens without losing their traditional charm. Inclusive Preppy: Designers are expanding the preppy aesthetic beyond its traditional boundaries, creating fonts that maintain sophistication while feeling more accessible and diverse. Sustainable Design: The timeless nature of preppy fonts aligns perfectly with sustainable design principles – these typefaces won’t look dated next year, making them environmentally responsible choices. Conclusion: Embracing Timeless Elegance Preppy fonts represent more than just letterforms – they’re a gateway to timeless elegance and sophisticated communication. Whether you’re designing wedding invitations for a Martha’s Vineyard ceremony or creating brand identity for a boutique law firm, the right preppy font can elevate your work from merely professional to genuinely distinguished. The beauty of preppy typography lies in its ability to feel both traditional and fresh, formal yet approachable. These fonts have stood the test of time because they tap into something fundamental about how we perceive quality, tradition, and sophistication. As you explore the world of preppy fonts, remember that the best typography choices support your message rather than overshadowing it. Choose fonts that enhance your content’s inherent qualities and speak to your audience’s aspirations and values. So whether you’re channeling that old-money aesthetic or simply want to add a touch of refined elegance to your designs, preppy fonts offer a wealth of possibilities. After all, good typography, like good manners, never goes out of style.
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  • How AI is reshaping the future of healthcare and medical research

    Transcript       
    PETER LEE: “In ‘The Little Black Bag,’ a classic science fiction story, a high-tech doctor’s kit of the future is accidentally transported back to the 1950s, into the shaky hands of a washed-up, alcoholic doctor. The ultimate medical tool, it redeems the doctor wielding it, allowing him to practice gratifyingly heroic medicine. … The tale ends badly for the doctor and his treacherous assistant, but it offered a picture of how advanced technology could transform medicine—powerful when it was written nearly 75 years ago and still so today. What would be the Al equivalent of that little black bag? At this moment when new capabilities are emerging, how do we imagine them into medicine?”          
    This is The AI Revolution in Medicine, Revisited. I’m your host, Peter Lee.   
    Shortly after OpenAI’s GPT-4 was publicly released, Carey Goldberg, Dr. Zak Kohane, and I published The AI Revolution in Medicine to help educate the world of healthcare and medical research about the transformative impact this new generative AI technology could have. But because we wrote the book when GPT-4 was still a secret, we had to speculate. Now, two years later, what did we get right, and what did we get wrong?    
    In this series, we’ll talk to clinicians, patients, hospital administrators, and others to understand the reality of AI in the field and where we go from here.  The book passage I read at the top is from “Chapter 10: The Big Black Bag.” 
    In imagining AI in medicine, Carey, Zak, and I included in our book two fictional accounts. In the first, a medical resident consults GPT-4 on her personal phone as the patient in front of her crashes. Within seconds, it offers an alternate response based on recent literature. In the second account, a 90-year-old woman with several chronic conditions is living independently and receiving near-constant medical support from an AI aide.   
    In our conversations with the guests we’ve spoken to so far, we’ve caught a glimpse of these predicted futures, seeing how clinicians and patients are actually using AI today and how developers are leveraging the technology in the healthcare products and services they’re creating. In fact, that first fictional account isn’t so fictional after all, as most of the doctors in the real world actually appear to be using AI at least occasionally—and sometimes much more than occasionally—to help in their daily clinical work. And as for the second fictional account, which is more of a science fiction account, it seems we are indeed on the verge of a new way of delivering and receiving healthcare, though the future is still very much open. 
    As we continue to examine the current state of AI in healthcare and its potential to transform the field, I’m pleased to welcome Bill Gates and Sébastien Bubeck.  
    Bill may be best known as the co-founder of Microsoft, having created the company with his childhood friend Paul Allen in 1975. He’s now the founder of Breakthrough Energy, which aims to advance clean energy innovation, and TerraPower, a company developing groundbreaking nuclear energy and science technologies. He also chairs the world’s largest philanthropic organization, the Gates Foundation, and focuses on solving a variety of health challenges around the globe and here at home. 
    Sébastien is a research lead at OpenAI. He was previously a distinguished scientist, vice president of AI, and a colleague of mine here at Microsoft, where his work included spearheading the development of the family of small language models known as Phi. While at Microsoft, he also coauthored the discussion-provoking 2023 paper “Sparks of Artificial General Intelligence,” which presented the results of early experiments with GPT-4 conducted by a small team from Microsoft Research.     
    Here’s my conversation with Bill Gates and Sébastien Bubeck. 
    LEE: Bill, welcome. 
    BILL GATES: Thank you. 
    LEE: Seb … 
    SÉBASTIEN BUBECK: Yeah. Hi, hi, Peter. Nice to be here. 
    LEE: You know, one of the things that I’ve been doing just to get the conversation warmed up is to talk about origin stories, and what I mean about origin stories is, you know, what was the first contact that you had with large language models or the concept of generative AI that convinced you or made you think that something really important was happening? 
    And so, Bill, I think I’ve heard the story about, you know, the time when the OpenAI folks—Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and others—showed you something, but could we hear from you what those early encounters were like and what was going through your mind?  
    GATES: Well, I’d been visiting OpenAI soon after it was created to see things like GPT-2 and to see the little arm they had that was trying to match human manipulation and, you know, looking at their games like Dota that they were trying to get as good as human play. And honestly, I didn’t think the language model stuff they were doing, even when they got to GPT-3, would show the ability to learn, you know, in the same sense that a human reads a biology book and is able to take that knowledge and access it not only to pass a test but also to create new medicines. 
    And so my challenge to them was that if their LLM could get a five on the advanced placement biology test, then I would say, OK, it took biologic knowledge and encoded it in an accessible way and that I didn’t expect them to do that very quickly but it would be profound.  
    And it was only about six months after I challenged them to do that, that an early version of GPT-4 they brought up to a dinner at my house, and in fact, it answered most of the questions that night very well. The one it got totally wrong, we were … because it was so good, we kept thinking, Oh, we must be wrong. It turned out it was a math weaknessthat, you know, we later understood that that was an area of, weirdly, of incredible weakness of those early models. But, you know, that was when I realized, OK, the age of cheap intelligence was at its beginning. 
    LEE: Yeah. So I guess it seems like you had something similar to me in that my first encounters, I actually harbored some skepticism. Is it fair to say you were skeptical before that? 
    GATES: Well, the idea that we’ve figured out how to encode and access knowledge in this very deep sense without even understanding the nature of the encoding, … 
    LEE: Right.  
    GATES: … that is a bit weird.  
    LEE: Yeah. 
    GATES: We have an algorithm that creates the computation, but even say, OK, where is the president’s birthday stored in there? Where is this fact stored in there? The fact that even now when we’re playing around, getting a little bit more sense of it, it’s opaque to us what the semantic encoding is, it’s, kind of, amazing to me. I thought the invention of knowledge storage would be an explicit way of encoding knowledge, not an implicit statistical training. 
    LEE: Yeah, yeah. All right. So, Seb, you know, on this same topic, you know, I got—as we say at Microsoft—I got pulled into the tent. 
    BUBECK: Yes.  
    LEE: Because this was a very secret project. And then, um, I had the opportunity to select a small number of researchers in MSRto join and start investigating this thing seriously. And the first person I pulled in was you. 
    BUBECK: Yeah. 
    LEE: And so what were your first encounters? Because I actually don’t remember what happened then. 
    BUBECK: Oh, I remember it very well.My first encounter with GPT-4 was in a meeting with the two of you, actually. But my kind of first contact, the first moment where I realized that something was happening with generative AI, was before that. And I agree with Bill that I also wasn’t too impressed by GPT-3. 
    I though that it was kind of, you know, very naturally mimicking the web, sort of parroting what was written there in a nice way. Still in a way which seemed very impressive. But it wasn’t really intelligent in any way. But shortly after GPT-3, there was a model before GPT-4 that really shocked me, and this was the first image generation model, DALL-E 1. 
    So that was in 2021. And I will forever remember the press release of OpenAI where they had this prompt of an avocado chair and then you had this image of the avocado chair.And what really shocked me is that clearly the model kind of “understood” what is a chair, what is an avocado, and was able to merge those concepts. 
    So this was really, to me, the first moment where I saw some understanding in those models.  
    LEE: So this was, just to get the timing right, that was before I pulled you into the tent. 
    BUBECK: That was before. That was like a year before. 
    LEE: Right.  
    BUBECK: And now I will tell you how, you know, we went from that moment to the meeting with the two of you and GPT-4. 
    So once I saw this kind of understanding, I thought, OK, fine. It understands concept, but it’s still not able to reason. It cannot—as, you know, Bill was saying—it cannot learn from your document. It cannot reason.  
    So I set out to try to prove that. You know, this is what I was in the business of at the time, trying to prove things in mathematics. So I was trying to prove that basically autoregressive transformers could never reason. So I was trying to prove this. And after a year of work, I had something reasonable to show. And so I had the meeting with the two of you, and I had this example where I wanted to say, there is no way that an LLM is going to be able to do x. 
    And then as soon as I … I don’t know if you remember, Bill. But as soon as I said that, you said, oh, but wait a second. I had, you know, the OpenAI crew at my house recently, and they showed me a new model. Why don’t we ask this new model this question?  
    LEE: Yeah.
    BUBECK: And we did, and it solved it on the spot. And that really, honestly, just changed my life. Like, you know, I had been working for a year trying to say that this was impossible. And just right there, it was shown to be possible.  
    LEE:One of the very first things I got interested in—because I was really thinking a lot about healthcare—was healthcare and medicine. 
    And I don’t know if the two of you remember, but I ended up doing a lot of tests. I ran through, you know, step one and step two of the US Medical Licensing Exam. Did a whole bunch of other things. I wrote this big report. It was, you know, I can’t remember … a couple hundred pages.  
    And I needed to share this with someone. I didn’t … there weren’t too many people I could share it with. So I sent, I think, a copy to you, Bill. Sent a copy to you, Seb.  
    I hardly slept for about a week putting that report together. And, yeah, and I kept working on it. But I was far from alone. I think everyone who was in the tent, so to speak, in those early days was going through something pretty similar. All right. So I think … of course, a lot of what I put in the report also ended up being examples that made it into the book. 
    But the main purpose of this conversation isn’t to reminisce aboutor indulge in those reminiscences but to talk about what’s happening in healthcare and medicine. And, you know, as I said, we wrote this book. We did it very, very quickly. Seb, you helped. Bill, you know, you provided a review and some endorsements. 
    But, you know, honestly, we didn’t know what we were talking about because no one had access to this thing. And so we just made a bunch of guesses. So really, the whole thing I wanted to probe with the two of you is, now with two years of experience out in the world, what, you know, what do we think is happening today? 
    You know, is AI actually having an impact, positive or negative, on healthcare and medicine? And what do we now think is going to happen in the next two years, five years, or 10 years? And so I realize it’s a little bit too abstract to just ask it that way. So let me just try to narrow the discussion and guide us a little bit.  
    Um, the kind of administrative and clerical work, paperwork, around healthcare—and we made a lot of guesses about that—that appears to be going well, but, you know, Bill, I know we’ve discussed that sometimes that you think there ought to be a lot more going on. Do you have a viewpoint on how AI is actually finding its way into reducing paperwork? 
    GATES: Well, I’m stunned … I don’t think there should be a patient-doctor meeting where the AI is not sitting in and both transcribing, offering to help with the paperwork, and even making suggestions, although the doctor will be the one, you know, who makes the final decision about the diagnosis and whatever prescription gets done.  
    It’s so helpful. You know, when that patient goes home and their, you know, son who wants to understand what happened has some questions, that AI should be available to continue that conversation. And the way you can improve that experience and streamline things and, you know, involve the people who advise you. I don’t understand why that’s not more adopted, because there you still have the human in the loop making that final decision. 
    But even for, like, follow-up calls to make sure the patient did things, to understand if they have concerns and knowing when to escalate back to the doctor, the benefit is incredible. And, you know, that thing is ready for prime time. That paradigm is ready for prime time, in my view. 
    LEE: Yeah, there are some good products, but it seems like the number one use right now—and we kind of got this from some of the previous guests in previous episodes—is the use of AI just to respond to emails from patients.Does that make sense to you? 
    BUBECK: Yeah. So maybe I want to second what Bill was saying but maybe take a step back first. You know, two years ago, like, the concept of clinical scribes, which is one of the things that we’re talking about right now, it would have sounded, in fact, it sounded two years ago, borderline dangerous. Because everybody was worried about hallucinations. What happened if you have this AI listening in and then it transcribes, you know, something wrong? 
    Now, two years later, I think it’s mostly working. And in fact, it is not yet, you know, fully adopted. You’re right. But it is in production. It is used, you know, in many, many places. So this rate of progress is astounding because it wasn’t obvious that we would be able to overcome those obstacles of hallucination. It’s not to say that hallucinations are fully solved. In the case of the closed system, they are.  
    Now, I think more generally what’s going on in the background is that there is something that we, that certainly I, underestimated, which is this management overhead. So I think the reason why this is not adopted everywhere is really a training and teaching aspect. People need to be taught, like, those systems, how to interact with them. 
    And one example that I really like, a study that recently appeared where they tried to use ChatGPT for diagnosis and they were comparing doctors without and with ChatGPT. And the amazing thing … so this was a set of cases where the accuracy of the doctors alone was around 75%. ChatGPT alone was 90%. So that’s already kind of mind blowing. But then the kicker is that doctors with ChatGPT was 80%.  
    Intelligence alone is not enough. It’s also how it’s presented, how you interact with it. And ChatGPT, it’s an amazing tool. Obviously, I absolutely love it. But it’s not … you don’t want a doctor to have to type in, you know, prompts and use it that way. 
    It should be, as Bill was saying, kind of running continuously in the background, sending you notifications. And you have to be really careful of the rate at which those notifications are being sent. Because if they are too frequent, then the doctor will learn to ignore them. So you have to … all of those things matter, in fact, at least as much as the level of intelligence of the machine. 
    LEE: One of the things I think about, Bill, in that scenario that you described, doctors do some thinking about the patient when they write the note. So, you know, I’m always a little uncertain whether it’s actually … you know, you wouldn’t necessarily want to fully automate this, I don’t think. Or at least there needs to be some prompt to the doctor to make sure that the doctor puts some thought into what happened in the encounter with the patient. Does that make sense to you at all? 
    GATES: At this stage, you know, I’d still put the onus on the doctor to write the conclusions and the summary and not delegate that. 
    The tradeoffs you make a little bit are somewhat dependent on the situation you’re in. If you’re in Africa,
    So, yes, the doctor’s still going to have to do a lot of work, but just the quality of letting the patient and the people around them interact and ask questions and have things explained, that alone is such a quality improvement. It’s mind blowing.  
    LEE: So since you mentioned, you know, Africa—and, of course, this touches on the mission and some of the priorities of the Gates Foundation and this idea of democratization of access to expert medical care—what’s the most interesting stuff going on right now? Are there people and organizations or technologies that are impressing you or that you’re tracking? 
    GATES: Yeah. So the Gates Foundation has given out a lot of grants to people in Africa doing education, agriculture but more healthcare examples than anything. And the way these things start off, they often start out either being patient-centric in a narrow situation, like, OK, I’m a pregnant woman; talk to me. Or, I have infectious disease symptoms; talk to me. Or they’re connected to a health worker where they’re helping that worker get their job done. And we have lots of pilots out, you know, in both of those cases.  
    The dream would be eventually to have the thing the patient consults be so broad that it’s like having a doctor available who understands the local things.  
    LEE: Right.  
    GATES: We’re not there yet. But over the next two or three years, you know, particularly given the worsening financial constraints against African health systems, where the withdrawal of money has been dramatic, you know, figuring out how to take this—what I sometimes call “free intelligence”—and build a quality health system around that, we will have to be more radical in low-income countries than any rich country is ever going to be.  
    LEE: Also, there’s maybe a different regulatory environment, so some of those things maybe are easier? Because right now, I think the world hasn’t figured out how to and whether to regulate, let’s say, an AI that might give a medical diagnosis or write a prescription for a medication. 
    BUBECK: Yeah. I think one issue with this, and it’s also slowing down the deployment of AI in healthcare more generally, is a lack of proper benchmark. Because, you know, you were mentioning the USMLE, for example. That’s a great test to test human beings and their knowledge of healthcare and medicine. But it’s not a great test to give to an AI. 
    It’s not asking the right questions. So finding what are the right questions to test whether an AI system is ready to give diagnosis in a constrained setting, that’s a very, very important direction, which to my surprise, is not yet accelerating at the rate that I was hoping for. 
    LEE: OK, so that gives me an excuse to get more now into the core AI tech because something I’ve discussed with both of you is this issue of what are the right tests. And you both know the very first test I give to any new spin of an LLM is I present a patient, the results—a mythical patient—the results of my physical exam, my mythical physical exam. Maybe some results of some initial labs. And then I present or propose a differential diagnosis. And if you’re not in medicine, a differential diagnosis you can just think of as a prioritized list of the possible diagnoses that fit with all that data. And in that proposed differential, I always intentionally make two mistakes. 
    I make a textbook technical error in one of the possible elements of the differential diagnosis, and I have an error of omission. And, you know, I just want to know, does the LLM understand what I’m talking about? And all the good ones out there do now. But then I want to know, can it spot the errors? And then most importantly, is it willing to tell me I’m wrong, that I’ve made a mistake?  
    That last piece seems really hard for AI today. And so let me ask you first, Seb, because at the time of this taping, of course, there was a new spin of GPT-4o last week that became overly sycophantic. In other words, it was actually prone in that test of mine not only to not tell me I’m wrong, but it actually praised me for the creativity of my differential.What’s up with that? 
    BUBECK: Yeah, I guess it’s a testament to the fact that training those models is still more of an art than a science. So it’s a difficult job. Just to be clear with the audience, we have rolled back thatversion of GPT-4o, so now we don’t have the sycophant version out there. 
    Yeah, no, it’s a really difficult question. It has to do … as you said, it’s very technical. It has to do with the post-training and how, like, where do you nudge the model? So, you know, there is this very classical by now technique called RLHF, where you push the model in the direction of a certain reward model. So the reward model is just telling the model, you know, what behavior is good, what behavior is bad. 
    But this reward model is itself an LLM, and, you know, Bill was saying at the very beginning of the conversation that we don’t really understand how those LLMs deal with concepts like, you know, where is the capital of France located? Things like that. It is the same thing for this reward model. We don’t know why it says that it prefers one output to another, and whether this is correlated with some sycophancy is, you know, something that we discovered basically just now. That if you push too hard in optimization on this reward model, you will get a sycophant model. 
    So it’s kind of … what I’m trying to say is we became too good at what we were doing, and we ended up, in fact, in a trap of the reward model. 
    LEE: I mean, you do want … it’s a difficult balance because you do want models to follow your desires and … 
    BUBECK: It’s a very difficult, very difficult balance. 
    LEE: So this brings up then the following question for me, which is the extent to which we think we’ll need to have specially trained models for things. So let me start with you, Bill. Do you have a point of view on whether we will need to, you know, quote-unquote take AI models to med school? Have them specially trained? Like, if you were going to deploy something to give medical care in underserved parts of the world, do we need to do something special to create those models? 
    GATES: We certainly need to teach them the African languages and the unique dialects so that the multimedia interactions are very high quality. We certainly need to teach them the disease prevalence and unique disease patterns like, you know, neglected tropical diseases and malaria. So we need to gather a set of facts that somebody trying to go for a US customer base, you know, wouldn’t necessarily have that in there. 
    Those two things are actually very straightforward because the additional training time is small. I’d say for the next few years, we’ll also need to do reinforcement learning about the context of being a doctor and how important certain behaviors are. Humans learn over the course of their life to some degree that, I’m in a different context and the way I behave in terms of being willing to criticize or be nice, you know, how important is it? Who’s here? What’s my relationship to them?  
    Right now, these machines don’t have that broad social experience. And so if you know it’s going to be used for health things, a lot of reinforcement learning of the very best humans in that context would still be valuable. Eventually, the models will, having read all the literature of the world about good doctors, bad doctors, it’ll understand as soon as you say, “I want you to be a doctor diagnosing somebody.” All of the implicit reinforcement that fits that situation, you know, will be there.
    LEE: Yeah.
    GATES: And so I hope three years from now, we don’t have to do that reinforcement learning. But today, for any medical context, you would want a lot of data to reinforce tone, willingness to say things when, you know, there might be something significant at stake. 
    LEE: Yeah. So, you know, something Bill said, kind of, reminds me of another thing that I think we missed, which is, the context also … and the specialization also pertains to different, I guess, what we still call “modes,” although I don’t know if the idea of multimodal is the same as it was two years ago. But, you know, what do you make of all of the hubbub around—in fact, within Microsoft Research, this is a big deal, but I think we’re far from alone—you know, medical images and vision, video, proteins and molecules, cell, you know, cellular data and so on. 
    BUBECK: Yeah. OK. So there is a lot to say to everything … to the last, you know, couple of minutes. Maybe on the specialization aspect, you know, I think there is, hiding behind this, a really fundamental scientific question of whether eventually we have a singular AGIthat kind of knows everything and you can just put, you know, explain your own context and it will just get it and understand everything. 
    That’s one vision. I have to say, I don’t particularly believe in this vision. In fact, we humans are not like that at all. I think, hopefully, we are general intelligences, yet we have to specialize a lot. And, you know, I did myself a lot of RL, reinforcement learning, on mathematics. Like, that’s what I did, you know, spent a lot of time doing that. And I didn’t improve on other aspects. You know, in fact, I probably degraded in other aspects.So it’s … I think it’s an important example to have in mind. 
    LEE: I think I might disagree with you on that, though, because, like, doesn’t a model have to see both good science and bad science in order to be able to gain the ability to discern between the two? 
    BUBECK: Yeah, no, that absolutely. I think there is value in seeing the generality, in having a very broad base. But then you, kind of, specialize on verticals. And this is where also, you know, open-weights model, which we haven’t talked about yet, are really important because they allow you to provide this broad base to everyone. And then you can specialize on top of it. 
    LEE: So we have about three hours of stuff to talk about, but our time is actually running low.
    BUBECK: Yes, yes, yes.  
    LEE: So I think I want … there’s a more provocative question. It’s almost a silly question, but I need to ask it of the two of you, which is, is there a future, you know, where AI replaces doctors or replaces, you know, medical specialties that we have today? So what does the world look like, say, five years from now? 
    GATES: Well, it’s important to distinguish healthcare discovery activity from healthcare delivery activity. We focused mostly on delivery. I think it’s very much within the realm of possibility that the AI is not only accelerating healthcare discovery but substituting for a lot of the roles of, you know, I’m an organic chemist, or I run various types of assays. I can see those, which are, you know, testable-output-type jobs but with still very high value, I can see, you know, some replacement in those areas before the doctor.  
    The doctor, still understanding the human condition and long-term dialogues, you know, they’ve had a lifetime of reinforcement of that, particularly when you get into areas like mental health. So I wouldn’t say in five years, either people will choose to adopt it, but it will be profound that there’ll be this nearly free intelligence that can do follow-up, that can help you, you know, make sure you went through different possibilities. 
    And so I’d say, yes, we’ll have doctors, but I’d say healthcare will be massively transformed in its quality and in efficiency by AI in that time period. 
    LEE: Is there a comparison, useful comparison, say, between doctors and, say, programmers, computer programmers, or doctors and, I don’t know, lawyers? 
    GATES: Programming is another one that has, kind of, a mathematical correctness to it, you know, and so the objective function that you’re trying to reinforce to, as soon as you can understand the state machines, you can have something that’s “checkable”; that’s correct. So I think programming, you know, which is weird to say, that the machine will beat us at most programming tasks before we let it take over roles that have deep empathy, you know, physical presence and social understanding in them. 
    LEE: Yeah. By the way, you know, I fully expect in five years that AI will produce mathematical proofs that are checkable for validity, easily checkable, because they’ll be written in a proof-checking language like Lean or something but will be so complex that no human mathematician can understand them. I expect that to happen.  
    I can imagine in some fields, like cellular biology, we could have the same situation in the future because the molecular pathways, the chemistry, biochemistry of human cells or living cells is as complex as any mathematics, and so it seems possible that we may be in a state where in wet lab, we see, Oh yeah, this actually works, but no one can understand why. 
    BUBECK: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I really agree with Bill’s distinction of the discovery and the delivery, and indeed, the discovery’s when you can check things, and at the end, there is an artifact that you can verify. You know, you can run the protocol in the wet lab and seeproduced what you wanted. So I absolutely agree with that.  
    And in fact, you know, we don’t have to talk five years from now. I don’t know if you know, but just recently, there was a paper that was published on a scientific discovery using o3- mini. So this is really amazing. And, you know, just very quickly, just so people know, it was about this statistical physics model, the frustrated Potts model, which has to do with coloring, and basically, the case of three colors, like, more than two colors was open for a long time, and o3 was able to reduce the case of three colors to two colors.  
    LEE: Yeah. 
    BUBECK: Which is just, like, astounding. And this is not … this is now. This is happening right now. So this is something that I personally didn’t expect it would happen so quickly, and it’s due to those reasoning models.  
    Now, on the delivery side, I would add something more to it for the reason why doctors and, in fact, lawyers and coders will remain for a long time, and it’s because we still don’t understand how those models generalize. Like, at the end of the day, we are not able to tell you when they are confronted with a really new, novel situation, whether they will work or not. 
    Nobody is able to give you that guarantee. And I think until we understand this generalization better, we’re not going to be willing to just let the system in the wild without human supervision. 
    LEE: But don’t human doctors, human specialists … so, for example, a cardiologist sees a patient in a certain way that a nephrologist … 
    BUBECK: Yeah.
    LEE: … or an endocrinologist might not.
    BUBECK: That’s right. But another cardiologist will understand and, kind of, expect a certain level of generalization from their peer. And this, we just don’t have it with AI models. Now, of course, you’re exactly right. That generalization is also hard for humans. Like, if you have a human trained for one task and you put them into another task, then you don’t … you often don’t know.
    LEE: OK. You know, the podcast is focused on what’s happened over the last two years. But now, I’d like one provocative prediction about what you think the world of AI and medicine is going to be at some point in the future. You pick your timeframe. I don’t care if it’s two years or 20 years from now, but, you know, what do you think will be different about AI in medicine in that future than today? 
    BUBECK: Yeah, I think the deployment is going to accelerate soon. Like, we’re really not missing very much. There is this enormous capability overhang. Like, even if progress completely stopped, with current systems, we can do a lot more than what we’re doing right now. So I think this will … this has to be realized, you know, sooner rather than later. 
    And I think it’s probably dependent on these benchmarks and proper evaluation and tying this with regulation. So these are things that take time in human society and for good reason. But now we already are at two years; you know, give it another two years and it should be really …  
    LEE: Will AI prescribe your medicines? Write your prescriptions? 
    BUBECK: I think yes. I think yes. 
    LEE: OK. Bill? 
    GATES: Well, I think the next two years, we’ll have massive pilots, and so the amount of use of the AI, still in a copilot-type mode, you know, we should get millions of patient visits, you know, both in general medicine and in the mental health side, as well. And I think that’s going to build up both the data and the confidence to give the AI some additional autonomy. You know, are you going to let it talk to you at night when you’re panicked about your mental health with some ability to escalate?
    And, you know, I’ve gone so far as to tell politicians with national health systems that if they deploy AI appropriately, that the quality of care, the overload of the doctors, the improvement in the economics will be enough that their voters will be stunned because they just don’t expect this, and, you know, they could be reelectedjust on this one thing of fixing what is a very overloaded and economically challenged health system in these rich countries. 
    You know, my personal role is going to be to make sure that in the poorer countries, there isn’t some lag; in fact, in many cases, that we’ll be more aggressive because, you know, we’re comparing to having no access to doctors at all. And, you know, so I think whether it’s India or Africa, there’ll be lessons that are globally valuable because we need medical intelligence. And, you know, thank god AI is going to provide a lot of that. 
    LEE: Well, on that optimistic note, I think that’s a good way to end. Bill, Seb, really appreciate all of this.  
    I think the most fundamental prediction we made in the book is that AI would actually find its way into the practice of medicine, and I think that that at least has come true, maybe in different ways than we expected, but it’s come true, and I think it’ll only accelerate from here. So thanks again, both of you.  
    GATES: Yeah. Thanks, you guys. 
    BUBECK: Thank you, Peter. Thanks, Bill. 
    LEE: I just always feel such a sense of privilege to have a chance to interact and actually work with people like Bill and Sébastien.   
    With Bill, I’m always amazed at how practically minded he is. He’s really thinking about the nuts and bolts of what AI might be able to do for people, and his thoughts about underserved parts of the world, the idea that we might actually be able to empower people with access to expert medical knowledge, I think is both inspiring and amazing.  
    And then, Seb, Sébastien Bubeck, he’s just absolutely a brilliant mind. He has a really firm grip on the deep mathematics of artificial intelligence and brings that to bear in his research and development work. And where that mathematics takes him isn’t just into the nuts and bolts of algorithms but into philosophical questions about the nature of intelligence.  
    One of the things that Sébastien brought up was the state of evaluation of AI systems. And indeed, he was fairly critical in our conversation. But of course, the world of AI research and development is just moving so fast, and indeed, since we recorded our conversation, OpenAI, in fact, released a new evaluation metric that is directly relevant to medical applications, and that is something called HealthBench. And Microsoft Research also released a new evaluation approach or process called ADeLe.  
    HealthBench and ADeLe are examples of new approaches to evaluating AI models that are less about testing their knowledge and ability to pass multiple-choice exams and instead are evaluation approaches designed to assess how well AI models are able to complete tasks that actually arise every day in typical healthcare or biomedical research settings. These are examples of really important good work that speak to how well AI models work in the real world of healthcare and biomedical research and how well they can collaborate with human beings in those settings. 
    You know, I asked Bill and Seb to make some predictions about the future. You know, my own answer, I expect that we’re going to be able to use AI to change how we diagnose patients, change how we decide treatment options.  
    If you’re a doctor or a nurse and you encounter a patient, you’ll ask questions, do a physical exam, you know, call out for labs just like you do today, but then you’ll be able to engage with AI based on all of that data and just ask, you know, based on all the other people who have gone through the same experience, who have similar data, how were they diagnosed? How were they treated? What were their outcomes? And what does that mean for the patient I have right now? Some people call it the “patients like me” paradigm. And I think that’s going to become real because of AI within our lifetimes. That idea of really grounding the delivery in healthcare and medical practice through data and intelligence, I actually now don’t see any barriers to that future becoming real.  
    I’d like to extend another big thank you to Bill and Sébastien for their time. And to our listeners, as always, it’s a pleasure to have you along for the ride. I hope you’ll join us for our remaining conversations, as well as a second coauthor roundtable with Carey and Zak.  
    Until next time.  
    #how #reshaping #future #healthcare #medical
    How AI is reshaping the future of healthcare and medical research
    Transcript        PETER LEE: “In ‘The Little Black Bag,’ a classic science fiction story, a high-tech doctor’s kit of the future is accidentally transported back to the 1950s, into the shaky hands of a washed-up, alcoholic doctor. The ultimate medical tool, it redeems the doctor wielding it, allowing him to practice gratifyingly heroic medicine. … The tale ends badly for the doctor and his treacherous assistant, but it offered a picture of how advanced technology could transform medicine—powerful when it was written nearly 75 years ago and still so today. What would be the Al equivalent of that little black bag? At this moment when new capabilities are emerging, how do we imagine them into medicine?”           This is The AI Revolution in Medicine, Revisited. I’m your host, Peter Lee.    Shortly after OpenAI’s GPT-4 was publicly released, Carey Goldberg, Dr. Zak Kohane, and I published The AI Revolution in Medicine to help educate the world of healthcare and medical research about the transformative impact this new generative AI technology could have. But because we wrote the book when GPT-4 was still a secret, we had to speculate. Now, two years later, what did we get right, and what did we get wrong?     In this series, we’ll talk to clinicians, patients, hospital administrators, and others to understand the reality of AI in the field and where we go from here.  The book passage I read at the top is from “Chapter 10: The Big Black Bag.”  In imagining AI in medicine, Carey, Zak, and I included in our book two fictional accounts. In the first, a medical resident consults GPT-4 on her personal phone as the patient in front of her crashes. Within seconds, it offers an alternate response based on recent literature. In the second account, a 90-year-old woman with several chronic conditions is living independently and receiving near-constant medical support from an AI aide.    In our conversations with the guests we’ve spoken to so far, we’ve caught a glimpse of these predicted futures, seeing how clinicians and patients are actually using AI today and how developers are leveraging the technology in the healthcare products and services they’re creating. In fact, that first fictional account isn’t so fictional after all, as most of the doctors in the real world actually appear to be using AI at least occasionally—and sometimes much more than occasionally—to help in their daily clinical work. And as for the second fictional account, which is more of a science fiction account, it seems we are indeed on the verge of a new way of delivering and receiving healthcare, though the future is still very much open.  As we continue to examine the current state of AI in healthcare and its potential to transform the field, I’m pleased to welcome Bill Gates and Sébastien Bubeck.   Bill may be best known as the co-founder of Microsoft, having created the company with his childhood friend Paul Allen in 1975. He’s now the founder of Breakthrough Energy, which aims to advance clean energy innovation, and TerraPower, a company developing groundbreaking nuclear energy and science technologies. He also chairs the world’s largest philanthropic organization, the Gates Foundation, and focuses on solving a variety of health challenges around the globe and here at home.  Sébastien is a research lead at OpenAI. He was previously a distinguished scientist, vice president of AI, and a colleague of mine here at Microsoft, where his work included spearheading the development of the family of small language models known as Phi. While at Microsoft, he also coauthored the discussion-provoking 2023 paper “Sparks of Artificial General Intelligence,” which presented the results of early experiments with GPT-4 conducted by a small team from Microsoft Research.      Here’s my conversation with Bill Gates and Sébastien Bubeck.  LEE: Bill, welcome.  BILL GATES: Thank you.  LEE: Seb …  SÉBASTIEN BUBECK: Yeah. Hi, hi, Peter. Nice to be here.  LEE: You know, one of the things that I’ve been doing just to get the conversation warmed up is to talk about origin stories, and what I mean about origin stories is, you know, what was the first contact that you had with large language models or the concept of generative AI that convinced you or made you think that something really important was happening?  And so, Bill, I think I’ve heard the story about, you know, the time when the OpenAI folks—Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and others—showed you something, but could we hear from you what those early encounters were like and what was going through your mind?   GATES: Well, I’d been visiting OpenAI soon after it was created to see things like GPT-2 and to see the little arm they had that was trying to match human manipulation and, you know, looking at their games like Dota that they were trying to get as good as human play. And honestly, I didn’t think the language model stuff they were doing, even when they got to GPT-3, would show the ability to learn, you know, in the same sense that a human reads a biology book and is able to take that knowledge and access it not only to pass a test but also to create new medicines.  And so my challenge to them was that if their LLM could get a five on the advanced placement biology test, then I would say, OK, it took biologic knowledge and encoded it in an accessible way and that I didn’t expect them to do that very quickly but it would be profound.   And it was only about six months after I challenged them to do that, that an early version of GPT-4 they brought up to a dinner at my house, and in fact, it answered most of the questions that night very well. The one it got totally wrong, we were … because it was so good, we kept thinking, Oh, we must be wrong. It turned out it was a math weaknessthat, you know, we later understood that that was an area of, weirdly, of incredible weakness of those early models. But, you know, that was when I realized, OK, the age of cheap intelligence was at its beginning.  LEE: Yeah. So I guess it seems like you had something similar to me in that my first encounters, I actually harbored some skepticism. Is it fair to say you were skeptical before that?  GATES: Well, the idea that we’ve figured out how to encode and access knowledge in this very deep sense without even understanding the nature of the encoding, …  LEE: Right.   GATES: … that is a bit weird.   LEE: Yeah.  GATES: We have an algorithm that creates the computation, but even say, OK, where is the president’s birthday stored in there? Where is this fact stored in there? The fact that even now when we’re playing around, getting a little bit more sense of it, it’s opaque to us what the semantic encoding is, it’s, kind of, amazing to me. I thought the invention of knowledge storage would be an explicit way of encoding knowledge, not an implicit statistical training.  LEE: Yeah, yeah. All right. So, Seb, you know, on this same topic, you know, I got—as we say at Microsoft—I got pulled into the tent.  BUBECK: Yes.   LEE: Because this was a very secret project. And then, um, I had the opportunity to select a small number of researchers in MSRto join and start investigating this thing seriously. And the first person I pulled in was you.  BUBECK: Yeah.  LEE: And so what were your first encounters? Because I actually don’t remember what happened then.  BUBECK: Oh, I remember it very well.My first encounter with GPT-4 was in a meeting with the two of you, actually. But my kind of first contact, the first moment where I realized that something was happening with generative AI, was before that. And I agree with Bill that I also wasn’t too impressed by GPT-3.  I though that it was kind of, you know, very naturally mimicking the web, sort of parroting what was written there in a nice way. Still in a way which seemed very impressive. But it wasn’t really intelligent in any way. But shortly after GPT-3, there was a model before GPT-4 that really shocked me, and this was the first image generation model, DALL-E 1.  So that was in 2021. And I will forever remember the press release of OpenAI where they had this prompt of an avocado chair and then you had this image of the avocado chair.And what really shocked me is that clearly the model kind of “understood” what is a chair, what is an avocado, and was able to merge those concepts.  So this was really, to me, the first moment where I saw some understanding in those models.   LEE: So this was, just to get the timing right, that was before I pulled you into the tent.  BUBECK: That was before. That was like a year before.  LEE: Right.   BUBECK: And now I will tell you how, you know, we went from that moment to the meeting with the two of you and GPT-4.  So once I saw this kind of understanding, I thought, OK, fine. It understands concept, but it’s still not able to reason. It cannot—as, you know, Bill was saying—it cannot learn from your document. It cannot reason.   So I set out to try to prove that. You know, this is what I was in the business of at the time, trying to prove things in mathematics. So I was trying to prove that basically autoregressive transformers could never reason. So I was trying to prove this. And after a year of work, I had something reasonable to show. And so I had the meeting with the two of you, and I had this example where I wanted to say, there is no way that an LLM is going to be able to do x.  And then as soon as I … I don’t know if you remember, Bill. But as soon as I said that, you said, oh, but wait a second. I had, you know, the OpenAI crew at my house recently, and they showed me a new model. Why don’t we ask this new model this question?   LEE: Yeah. BUBECK: And we did, and it solved it on the spot. And that really, honestly, just changed my life. Like, you know, I had been working for a year trying to say that this was impossible. And just right there, it was shown to be possible.   LEE:One of the very first things I got interested in—because I was really thinking a lot about healthcare—was healthcare and medicine.  And I don’t know if the two of you remember, but I ended up doing a lot of tests. I ran through, you know, step one and step two of the US Medical Licensing Exam. Did a whole bunch of other things. I wrote this big report. It was, you know, I can’t remember … a couple hundred pages.   And I needed to share this with someone. I didn’t … there weren’t too many people I could share it with. So I sent, I think, a copy to you, Bill. Sent a copy to you, Seb.   I hardly slept for about a week putting that report together. And, yeah, and I kept working on it. But I was far from alone. I think everyone who was in the tent, so to speak, in those early days was going through something pretty similar. All right. So I think … of course, a lot of what I put in the report also ended up being examples that made it into the book.  But the main purpose of this conversation isn’t to reminisce aboutor indulge in those reminiscences but to talk about what’s happening in healthcare and medicine. And, you know, as I said, we wrote this book. We did it very, very quickly. Seb, you helped. Bill, you know, you provided a review and some endorsements.  But, you know, honestly, we didn’t know what we were talking about because no one had access to this thing. And so we just made a bunch of guesses. So really, the whole thing I wanted to probe with the two of you is, now with two years of experience out in the world, what, you know, what do we think is happening today?  You know, is AI actually having an impact, positive or negative, on healthcare and medicine? And what do we now think is going to happen in the next two years, five years, or 10 years? And so I realize it’s a little bit too abstract to just ask it that way. So let me just try to narrow the discussion and guide us a little bit.   Um, the kind of administrative and clerical work, paperwork, around healthcare—and we made a lot of guesses about that—that appears to be going well, but, you know, Bill, I know we’ve discussed that sometimes that you think there ought to be a lot more going on. Do you have a viewpoint on how AI is actually finding its way into reducing paperwork?  GATES: Well, I’m stunned … I don’t think there should be a patient-doctor meeting where the AI is not sitting in and both transcribing, offering to help with the paperwork, and even making suggestions, although the doctor will be the one, you know, who makes the final decision about the diagnosis and whatever prescription gets done.   It’s so helpful. You know, when that patient goes home and their, you know, son who wants to understand what happened has some questions, that AI should be available to continue that conversation. And the way you can improve that experience and streamline things and, you know, involve the people who advise you. I don’t understand why that’s not more adopted, because there you still have the human in the loop making that final decision.  But even for, like, follow-up calls to make sure the patient did things, to understand if they have concerns and knowing when to escalate back to the doctor, the benefit is incredible. And, you know, that thing is ready for prime time. That paradigm is ready for prime time, in my view.  LEE: Yeah, there are some good products, but it seems like the number one use right now—and we kind of got this from some of the previous guests in previous episodes—is the use of AI just to respond to emails from patients.Does that make sense to you?  BUBECK: Yeah. So maybe I want to second what Bill was saying but maybe take a step back first. You know, two years ago, like, the concept of clinical scribes, which is one of the things that we’re talking about right now, it would have sounded, in fact, it sounded two years ago, borderline dangerous. Because everybody was worried about hallucinations. What happened if you have this AI listening in and then it transcribes, you know, something wrong?  Now, two years later, I think it’s mostly working. And in fact, it is not yet, you know, fully adopted. You’re right. But it is in production. It is used, you know, in many, many places. So this rate of progress is astounding because it wasn’t obvious that we would be able to overcome those obstacles of hallucination. It’s not to say that hallucinations are fully solved. In the case of the closed system, they are.   Now, I think more generally what’s going on in the background is that there is something that we, that certainly I, underestimated, which is this management overhead. So I think the reason why this is not adopted everywhere is really a training and teaching aspect. People need to be taught, like, those systems, how to interact with them.  And one example that I really like, a study that recently appeared where they tried to use ChatGPT for diagnosis and they were comparing doctors without and with ChatGPT. And the amazing thing … so this was a set of cases where the accuracy of the doctors alone was around 75%. ChatGPT alone was 90%. So that’s already kind of mind blowing. But then the kicker is that doctors with ChatGPT was 80%.   Intelligence alone is not enough. It’s also how it’s presented, how you interact with it. And ChatGPT, it’s an amazing tool. Obviously, I absolutely love it. But it’s not … you don’t want a doctor to have to type in, you know, prompts and use it that way.  It should be, as Bill was saying, kind of running continuously in the background, sending you notifications. And you have to be really careful of the rate at which those notifications are being sent. Because if they are too frequent, then the doctor will learn to ignore them. So you have to … all of those things matter, in fact, at least as much as the level of intelligence of the machine.  LEE: One of the things I think about, Bill, in that scenario that you described, doctors do some thinking about the patient when they write the note. So, you know, I’m always a little uncertain whether it’s actually … you know, you wouldn’t necessarily want to fully automate this, I don’t think. Or at least there needs to be some prompt to the doctor to make sure that the doctor puts some thought into what happened in the encounter with the patient. Does that make sense to you at all?  GATES: At this stage, you know, I’d still put the onus on the doctor to write the conclusions and the summary and not delegate that.  The tradeoffs you make a little bit are somewhat dependent on the situation you’re in. If you’re in Africa, So, yes, the doctor’s still going to have to do a lot of work, but just the quality of letting the patient and the people around them interact and ask questions and have things explained, that alone is such a quality improvement. It’s mind blowing.   LEE: So since you mentioned, you know, Africa—and, of course, this touches on the mission and some of the priorities of the Gates Foundation and this idea of democratization of access to expert medical care—what’s the most interesting stuff going on right now? Are there people and organizations or technologies that are impressing you or that you’re tracking?  GATES: Yeah. So the Gates Foundation has given out a lot of grants to people in Africa doing education, agriculture but more healthcare examples than anything. And the way these things start off, they often start out either being patient-centric in a narrow situation, like, OK, I’m a pregnant woman; talk to me. Or, I have infectious disease symptoms; talk to me. Or they’re connected to a health worker where they’re helping that worker get their job done. And we have lots of pilots out, you know, in both of those cases.   The dream would be eventually to have the thing the patient consults be so broad that it’s like having a doctor available who understands the local things.   LEE: Right.   GATES: We’re not there yet. But over the next two or three years, you know, particularly given the worsening financial constraints against African health systems, where the withdrawal of money has been dramatic, you know, figuring out how to take this—what I sometimes call “free intelligence”—and build a quality health system around that, we will have to be more radical in low-income countries than any rich country is ever going to be.   LEE: Also, there’s maybe a different regulatory environment, so some of those things maybe are easier? Because right now, I think the world hasn’t figured out how to and whether to regulate, let’s say, an AI that might give a medical diagnosis or write a prescription for a medication.  BUBECK: Yeah. I think one issue with this, and it’s also slowing down the deployment of AI in healthcare more generally, is a lack of proper benchmark. Because, you know, you were mentioning the USMLE, for example. That’s a great test to test human beings and their knowledge of healthcare and medicine. But it’s not a great test to give to an AI.  It’s not asking the right questions. So finding what are the right questions to test whether an AI system is ready to give diagnosis in a constrained setting, that’s a very, very important direction, which to my surprise, is not yet accelerating at the rate that I was hoping for.  LEE: OK, so that gives me an excuse to get more now into the core AI tech because something I’ve discussed with both of you is this issue of what are the right tests. And you both know the very first test I give to any new spin of an LLM is I present a patient, the results—a mythical patient—the results of my physical exam, my mythical physical exam. Maybe some results of some initial labs. And then I present or propose a differential diagnosis. And if you’re not in medicine, a differential diagnosis you can just think of as a prioritized list of the possible diagnoses that fit with all that data. And in that proposed differential, I always intentionally make two mistakes.  I make a textbook technical error in one of the possible elements of the differential diagnosis, and I have an error of omission. And, you know, I just want to know, does the LLM understand what I’m talking about? And all the good ones out there do now. But then I want to know, can it spot the errors? And then most importantly, is it willing to tell me I’m wrong, that I’ve made a mistake?   That last piece seems really hard for AI today. And so let me ask you first, Seb, because at the time of this taping, of course, there was a new spin of GPT-4o last week that became overly sycophantic. In other words, it was actually prone in that test of mine not only to not tell me I’m wrong, but it actually praised me for the creativity of my differential.What’s up with that?  BUBECK: Yeah, I guess it’s a testament to the fact that training those models is still more of an art than a science. So it’s a difficult job. Just to be clear with the audience, we have rolled back thatversion of GPT-4o, so now we don’t have the sycophant version out there.  Yeah, no, it’s a really difficult question. It has to do … as you said, it’s very technical. It has to do with the post-training and how, like, where do you nudge the model? So, you know, there is this very classical by now technique called RLHF, where you push the model in the direction of a certain reward model. So the reward model is just telling the model, you know, what behavior is good, what behavior is bad.  But this reward model is itself an LLM, and, you know, Bill was saying at the very beginning of the conversation that we don’t really understand how those LLMs deal with concepts like, you know, where is the capital of France located? Things like that. It is the same thing for this reward model. We don’t know why it says that it prefers one output to another, and whether this is correlated with some sycophancy is, you know, something that we discovered basically just now. That if you push too hard in optimization on this reward model, you will get a sycophant model.  So it’s kind of … what I’m trying to say is we became too good at what we were doing, and we ended up, in fact, in a trap of the reward model.  LEE: I mean, you do want … it’s a difficult balance because you do want models to follow your desires and …  BUBECK: It’s a very difficult, very difficult balance.  LEE: So this brings up then the following question for me, which is the extent to which we think we’ll need to have specially trained models for things. So let me start with you, Bill. Do you have a point of view on whether we will need to, you know, quote-unquote take AI models to med school? Have them specially trained? Like, if you were going to deploy something to give medical care in underserved parts of the world, do we need to do something special to create those models?  GATES: We certainly need to teach them the African languages and the unique dialects so that the multimedia interactions are very high quality. We certainly need to teach them the disease prevalence and unique disease patterns like, you know, neglected tropical diseases and malaria. So we need to gather a set of facts that somebody trying to go for a US customer base, you know, wouldn’t necessarily have that in there.  Those two things are actually very straightforward because the additional training time is small. I’d say for the next few years, we’ll also need to do reinforcement learning about the context of being a doctor and how important certain behaviors are. Humans learn over the course of their life to some degree that, I’m in a different context and the way I behave in terms of being willing to criticize or be nice, you know, how important is it? Who’s here? What’s my relationship to them?   Right now, these machines don’t have that broad social experience. And so if you know it’s going to be used for health things, a lot of reinforcement learning of the very best humans in that context would still be valuable. Eventually, the models will, having read all the literature of the world about good doctors, bad doctors, it’ll understand as soon as you say, “I want you to be a doctor diagnosing somebody.” All of the implicit reinforcement that fits that situation, you know, will be there. LEE: Yeah. GATES: And so I hope three years from now, we don’t have to do that reinforcement learning. But today, for any medical context, you would want a lot of data to reinforce tone, willingness to say things when, you know, there might be something significant at stake.  LEE: Yeah. So, you know, something Bill said, kind of, reminds me of another thing that I think we missed, which is, the context also … and the specialization also pertains to different, I guess, what we still call “modes,” although I don’t know if the idea of multimodal is the same as it was two years ago. But, you know, what do you make of all of the hubbub around—in fact, within Microsoft Research, this is a big deal, but I think we’re far from alone—you know, medical images and vision, video, proteins and molecules, cell, you know, cellular data and so on.  BUBECK: Yeah. OK. So there is a lot to say to everything … to the last, you know, couple of minutes. Maybe on the specialization aspect, you know, I think there is, hiding behind this, a really fundamental scientific question of whether eventually we have a singular AGIthat kind of knows everything and you can just put, you know, explain your own context and it will just get it and understand everything.  That’s one vision. I have to say, I don’t particularly believe in this vision. In fact, we humans are not like that at all. I think, hopefully, we are general intelligences, yet we have to specialize a lot. And, you know, I did myself a lot of RL, reinforcement learning, on mathematics. Like, that’s what I did, you know, spent a lot of time doing that. And I didn’t improve on other aspects. You know, in fact, I probably degraded in other aspects.So it’s … I think it’s an important example to have in mind.  LEE: I think I might disagree with you on that, though, because, like, doesn’t a model have to see both good science and bad science in order to be able to gain the ability to discern between the two?  BUBECK: Yeah, no, that absolutely. I think there is value in seeing the generality, in having a very broad base. But then you, kind of, specialize on verticals. And this is where also, you know, open-weights model, which we haven’t talked about yet, are really important because they allow you to provide this broad base to everyone. And then you can specialize on top of it.  LEE: So we have about three hours of stuff to talk about, but our time is actually running low. BUBECK: Yes, yes, yes.   LEE: So I think I want … there’s a more provocative question. It’s almost a silly question, but I need to ask it of the two of you, which is, is there a future, you know, where AI replaces doctors or replaces, you know, medical specialties that we have today? So what does the world look like, say, five years from now?  GATES: Well, it’s important to distinguish healthcare discovery activity from healthcare delivery activity. We focused mostly on delivery. I think it’s very much within the realm of possibility that the AI is not only accelerating healthcare discovery but substituting for a lot of the roles of, you know, I’m an organic chemist, or I run various types of assays. I can see those, which are, you know, testable-output-type jobs but with still very high value, I can see, you know, some replacement in those areas before the doctor.   The doctor, still understanding the human condition and long-term dialogues, you know, they’ve had a lifetime of reinforcement of that, particularly when you get into areas like mental health. So I wouldn’t say in five years, either people will choose to adopt it, but it will be profound that there’ll be this nearly free intelligence that can do follow-up, that can help you, you know, make sure you went through different possibilities.  And so I’d say, yes, we’ll have doctors, but I’d say healthcare will be massively transformed in its quality and in efficiency by AI in that time period.  LEE: Is there a comparison, useful comparison, say, between doctors and, say, programmers, computer programmers, or doctors and, I don’t know, lawyers?  GATES: Programming is another one that has, kind of, a mathematical correctness to it, you know, and so the objective function that you’re trying to reinforce to, as soon as you can understand the state machines, you can have something that’s “checkable”; that’s correct. So I think programming, you know, which is weird to say, that the machine will beat us at most programming tasks before we let it take over roles that have deep empathy, you know, physical presence and social understanding in them.  LEE: Yeah. By the way, you know, I fully expect in five years that AI will produce mathematical proofs that are checkable for validity, easily checkable, because they’ll be written in a proof-checking language like Lean or something but will be so complex that no human mathematician can understand them. I expect that to happen.   I can imagine in some fields, like cellular biology, we could have the same situation in the future because the molecular pathways, the chemistry, biochemistry of human cells or living cells is as complex as any mathematics, and so it seems possible that we may be in a state where in wet lab, we see, Oh yeah, this actually works, but no one can understand why.  BUBECK: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I really agree with Bill’s distinction of the discovery and the delivery, and indeed, the discovery’s when you can check things, and at the end, there is an artifact that you can verify. You know, you can run the protocol in the wet lab and seeproduced what you wanted. So I absolutely agree with that.   And in fact, you know, we don’t have to talk five years from now. I don’t know if you know, but just recently, there was a paper that was published on a scientific discovery using o3- mini. So this is really amazing. And, you know, just very quickly, just so people know, it was about this statistical physics model, the frustrated Potts model, which has to do with coloring, and basically, the case of three colors, like, more than two colors was open for a long time, and o3 was able to reduce the case of three colors to two colors.   LEE: Yeah.  BUBECK: Which is just, like, astounding. And this is not … this is now. This is happening right now. So this is something that I personally didn’t expect it would happen so quickly, and it’s due to those reasoning models.   Now, on the delivery side, I would add something more to it for the reason why doctors and, in fact, lawyers and coders will remain for a long time, and it’s because we still don’t understand how those models generalize. Like, at the end of the day, we are not able to tell you when they are confronted with a really new, novel situation, whether they will work or not.  Nobody is able to give you that guarantee. And I think until we understand this generalization better, we’re not going to be willing to just let the system in the wild without human supervision.  LEE: But don’t human doctors, human specialists … so, for example, a cardiologist sees a patient in a certain way that a nephrologist …  BUBECK: Yeah. LEE: … or an endocrinologist might not. BUBECK: That’s right. But another cardiologist will understand and, kind of, expect a certain level of generalization from their peer. And this, we just don’t have it with AI models. Now, of course, you’re exactly right. That generalization is also hard for humans. Like, if you have a human trained for one task and you put them into another task, then you don’t … you often don’t know. LEE: OK. You know, the podcast is focused on what’s happened over the last two years. But now, I’d like one provocative prediction about what you think the world of AI and medicine is going to be at some point in the future. You pick your timeframe. I don’t care if it’s two years or 20 years from now, but, you know, what do you think will be different about AI in medicine in that future than today?  BUBECK: Yeah, I think the deployment is going to accelerate soon. Like, we’re really not missing very much. There is this enormous capability overhang. Like, even if progress completely stopped, with current systems, we can do a lot more than what we’re doing right now. So I think this will … this has to be realized, you know, sooner rather than later.  And I think it’s probably dependent on these benchmarks and proper evaluation and tying this with regulation. So these are things that take time in human society and for good reason. But now we already are at two years; you know, give it another two years and it should be really …   LEE: Will AI prescribe your medicines? Write your prescriptions?  BUBECK: I think yes. I think yes.  LEE: OK. Bill?  GATES: Well, I think the next two years, we’ll have massive pilots, and so the amount of use of the AI, still in a copilot-type mode, you know, we should get millions of patient visits, you know, both in general medicine and in the mental health side, as well. And I think that’s going to build up both the data and the confidence to give the AI some additional autonomy. You know, are you going to let it talk to you at night when you’re panicked about your mental health with some ability to escalate? And, you know, I’ve gone so far as to tell politicians with national health systems that if they deploy AI appropriately, that the quality of care, the overload of the doctors, the improvement in the economics will be enough that their voters will be stunned because they just don’t expect this, and, you know, they could be reelectedjust on this one thing of fixing what is a very overloaded and economically challenged health system in these rich countries.  You know, my personal role is going to be to make sure that in the poorer countries, there isn’t some lag; in fact, in many cases, that we’ll be more aggressive because, you know, we’re comparing to having no access to doctors at all. And, you know, so I think whether it’s India or Africa, there’ll be lessons that are globally valuable because we need medical intelligence. And, you know, thank god AI is going to provide a lot of that.  LEE: Well, on that optimistic note, I think that’s a good way to end. Bill, Seb, really appreciate all of this.   I think the most fundamental prediction we made in the book is that AI would actually find its way into the practice of medicine, and I think that that at least has come true, maybe in different ways than we expected, but it’s come true, and I think it’ll only accelerate from here. So thanks again, both of you.   GATES: Yeah. Thanks, you guys.  BUBECK: Thank you, Peter. Thanks, Bill.  LEE: I just always feel such a sense of privilege to have a chance to interact and actually work with people like Bill and Sébastien.    With Bill, I’m always amazed at how practically minded he is. He’s really thinking about the nuts and bolts of what AI might be able to do for people, and his thoughts about underserved parts of the world, the idea that we might actually be able to empower people with access to expert medical knowledge, I think is both inspiring and amazing.   And then, Seb, Sébastien Bubeck, he’s just absolutely a brilliant mind. He has a really firm grip on the deep mathematics of artificial intelligence and brings that to bear in his research and development work. And where that mathematics takes him isn’t just into the nuts and bolts of algorithms but into philosophical questions about the nature of intelligence.   One of the things that Sébastien brought up was the state of evaluation of AI systems. And indeed, he was fairly critical in our conversation. But of course, the world of AI research and development is just moving so fast, and indeed, since we recorded our conversation, OpenAI, in fact, released a new evaluation metric that is directly relevant to medical applications, and that is something called HealthBench. And Microsoft Research also released a new evaluation approach or process called ADeLe.   HealthBench and ADeLe are examples of new approaches to evaluating AI models that are less about testing their knowledge and ability to pass multiple-choice exams and instead are evaluation approaches designed to assess how well AI models are able to complete tasks that actually arise every day in typical healthcare or biomedical research settings. These are examples of really important good work that speak to how well AI models work in the real world of healthcare and biomedical research and how well they can collaborate with human beings in those settings.  You know, I asked Bill and Seb to make some predictions about the future. You know, my own answer, I expect that we’re going to be able to use AI to change how we diagnose patients, change how we decide treatment options.   If you’re a doctor or a nurse and you encounter a patient, you’ll ask questions, do a physical exam, you know, call out for labs just like you do today, but then you’ll be able to engage with AI based on all of that data and just ask, you know, based on all the other people who have gone through the same experience, who have similar data, how were they diagnosed? How were they treated? What were their outcomes? And what does that mean for the patient I have right now? Some people call it the “patients like me” paradigm. And I think that’s going to become real because of AI within our lifetimes. That idea of really grounding the delivery in healthcare and medical practice through data and intelligence, I actually now don’t see any barriers to that future becoming real.   I’d like to extend another big thank you to Bill and Sébastien for their time. And to our listeners, as always, it’s a pleasure to have you along for the ride. I hope you’ll join us for our remaining conversations, as well as a second coauthor roundtable with Carey and Zak.   Until next time.   #how #reshaping #future #healthcare #medical
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    How AI is reshaping the future of healthcare and medical research
    Transcript [MUSIC]      [BOOK PASSAGE]   PETER LEE: “In ‘The Little Black Bag,’ a classic science fiction story, a high-tech doctor’s kit of the future is accidentally transported back to the 1950s, into the shaky hands of a washed-up, alcoholic doctor. The ultimate medical tool, it redeems the doctor wielding it, allowing him to practice gratifyingly heroic medicine. … The tale ends badly for the doctor and his treacherous assistant, but it offered a picture of how advanced technology could transform medicine—powerful when it was written nearly 75 years ago and still so today. What would be the Al equivalent of that little black bag? At this moment when new capabilities are emerging, how do we imagine them into medicine?”   [END OF BOOK PASSAGE]     [THEME MUSIC]     This is The AI Revolution in Medicine, Revisited. I’m your host, Peter Lee.    Shortly after OpenAI’s GPT-4 was publicly released, Carey Goldberg, Dr. Zak Kohane, and I published The AI Revolution in Medicine to help educate the world of healthcare and medical research about the transformative impact this new generative AI technology could have. But because we wrote the book when GPT-4 was still a secret, we had to speculate. Now, two years later, what did we get right, and what did we get wrong?     In this series, we’ll talk to clinicians, patients, hospital administrators, and others to understand the reality of AI in the field and where we go from here.   [THEME MUSIC FADES] The book passage I read at the top is from “Chapter 10: The Big Black Bag.”  In imagining AI in medicine, Carey, Zak, and I included in our book two fictional accounts. In the first, a medical resident consults GPT-4 on her personal phone as the patient in front of her crashes. Within seconds, it offers an alternate response based on recent literature. In the second account, a 90-year-old woman with several chronic conditions is living independently and receiving near-constant medical support from an AI aide.    In our conversations with the guests we’ve spoken to so far, we’ve caught a glimpse of these predicted futures, seeing how clinicians and patients are actually using AI today and how developers are leveraging the technology in the healthcare products and services they’re creating. In fact, that first fictional account isn’t so fictional after all, as most of the doctors in the real world actually appear to be using AI at least occasionally—and sometimes much more than occasionally—to help in their daily clinical work. And as for the second fictional account, which is more of a science fiction account, it seems we are indeed on the verge of a new way of delivering and receiving healthcare, though the future is still very much open.  As we continue to examine the current state of AI in healthcare and its potential to transform the field, I’m pleased to welcome Bill Gates and Sébastien Bubeck.   Bill may be best known as the co-founder of Microsoft, having created the company with his childhood friend Paul Allen in 1975. He’s now the founder of Breakthrough Energy, which aims to advance clean energy innovation, and TerraPower, a company developing groundbreaking nuclear energy and science technologies. He also chairs the world’s largest philanthropic organization, the Gates Foundation, and focuses on solving a variety of health challenges around the globe and here at home.  Sébastien is a research lead at OpenAI. He was previously a distinguished scientist, vice president of AI, and a colleague of mine here at Microsoft, where his work included spearheading the development of the family of small language models known as Phi. While at Microsoft, he also coauthored the discussion-provoking 2023 paper “Sparks of Artificial General Intelligence,” which presented the results of early experiments with GPT-4 conducted by a small team from Microsoft Research.    [TRANSITION MUSIC]   Here’s my conversation with Bill Gates and Sébastien Bubeck.  LEE: Bill, welcome.  BILL GATES: Thank you.  LEE: Seb …  SÉBASTIEN BUBECK: Yeah. Hi, hi, Peter. Nice to be here.  LEE: You know, one of the things that I’ve been doing just to get the conversation warmed up is to talk about origin stories, and what I mean about origin stories is, you know, what was the first contact that you had with large language models or the concept of generative AI that convinced you or made you think that something really important was happening?  And so, Bill, I think I’ve heard the story about, you know, the time when the OpenAI folks—Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and others—showed you something, but could we hear from you what those early encounters were like and what was going through your mind?   GATES: Well, I’d been visiting OpenAI soon after it was created to see things like GPT-2 and to see the little arm they had that was trying to match human manipulation and, you know, looking at their games like Dota that they were trying to get as good as human play. And honestly, I didn’t think the language model stuff they were doing, even when they got to GPT-3, would show the ability to learn, you know, in the same sense that a human reads a biology book and is able to take that knowledge and access it not only to pass a test but also to create new medicines.  And so my challenge to them was that if their LLM could get a five on the advanced placement biology test, then I would say, OK, it took biologic knowledge and encoded it in an accessible way and that I didn’t expect them to do that very quickly but it would be profound.   And it was only about six months after I challenged them to do that, that an early version of GPT-4 they brought up to a dinner at my house, and in fact, it answered most of the questions that night very well. The one it got totally wrong, we were … because it was so good, we kept thinking, Oh, we must be wrong. It turned out it was a math weakness [LAUGHTER] that, you know, we later understood that that was an area of, weirdly, of incredible weakness of those early models. But, you know, that was when I realized, OK, the age of cheap intelligence was at its beginning.  LEE: Yeah. So I guess it seems like you had something similar to me in that my first encounters, I actually harbored some skepticism. Is it fair to say you were skeptical before that?  GATES: Well, the idea that we’ve figured out how to encode and access knowledge in this very deep sense without even understanding the nature of the encoding, …  LEE: Right.   GATES: … that is a bit weird.   LEE: Yeah.  GATES: We have an algorithm that creates the computation, but even say, OK, where is the president’s birthday stored in there? Where is this fact stored in there? The fact that even now when we’re playing around, getting a little bit more sense of it, it’s opaque to us what the semantic encoding is, it’s, kind of, amazing to me. I thought the invention of knowledge storage would be an explicit way of encoding knowledge, not an implicit statistical training.  LEE: Yeah, yeah. All right. So, Seb, you know, on this same topic, you know, I got—as we say at Microsoft—I got pulled into the tent. [LAUGHS]  BUBECK: Yes.   LEE: Because this was a very secret project. And then, um, I had the opportunity to select a small number of researchers in MSR [Microsoft Research] to join and start investigating this thing seriously. And the first person I pulled in was you.  BUBECK: Yeah.  LEE: And so what were your first encounters? Because I actually don’t remember what happened then.  BUBECK: Oh, I remember it very well. [LAUGHS] My first encounter with GPT-4 was in a meeting with the two of you, actually. But my kind of first contact, the first moment where I realized that something was happening with generative AI, was before that. And I agree with Bill that I also wasn’t too impressed by GPT-3.  I though that it was kind of, you know, very naturally mimicking the web, sort of parroting what was written there in a nice way. Still in a way which seemed very impressive. But it wasn’t really intelligent in any way. But shortly after GPT-3, there was a model before GPT-4 that really shocked me, and this was the first image generation model, DALL-E 1.  So that was in 2021. And I will forever remember the press release of OpenAI where they had this prompt of an avocado chair and then you had this image of the avocado chair. [LAUGHTER] And what really shocked me is that clearly the model kind of “understood” what is a chair, what is an avocado, and was able to merge those concepts.  So this was really, to me, the first moment where I saw some understanding in those models.   LEE: So this was, just to get the timing right, that was before I pulled you into the tent.  BUBECK: That was before. That was like a year before.  LEE: Right.   BUBECK: And now I will tell you how, you know, we went from that moment to the meeting with the two of you and GPT-4.  So once I saw this kind of understanding, I thought, OK, fine. It understands concept, but it’s still not able to reason. It cannot—as, you know, Bill was saying—it cannot learn from your document. It cannot reason.   So I set out to try to prove that. You know, this is what I was in the business of at the time, trying to prove things in mathematics. So I was trying to prove that basically autoregressive transformers could never reason. So I was trying to prove this. And after a year of work, I had something reasonable to show. And so I had the meeting with the two of you, and I had this example where I wanted to say, there is no way that an LLM is going to be able to do x.  And then as soon as I … I don’t know if you remember, Bill. But as soon as I said that, you said, oh, but wait a second. I had, you know, the OpenAI crew at my house recently, and they showed me a new model. Why don’t we ask this new model this question?   LEE: Yeah. BUBECK: And we did, and it solved it on the spot. And that really, honestly, just changed my life. Like, you know, I had been working for a year trying to say that this was impossible. And just right there, it was shown to be possible.   LEE: [LAUGHS] One of the very first things I got interested in—because I was really thinking a lot about healthcare—was healthcare and medicine.  And I don’t know if the two of you remember, but I ended up doing a lot of tests. I ran through, you know, step one and step two of the US Medical Licensing Exam. Did a whole bunch of other things. I wrote this big report. It was, you know, I can’t remember … a couple hundred pages.   And I needed to share this with someone. I didn’t … there weren’t too many people I could share it with. So I sent, I think, a copy to you, Bill. Sent a copy to you, Seb.   I hardly slept for about a week putting that report together. And, yeah, and I kept working on it. But I was far from alone. I think everyone who was in the tent, so to speak, in those early days was going through something pretty similar. All right. So I think … of course, a lot of what I put in the report also ended up being examples that made it into the book.  But the main purpose of this conversation isn’t to reminisce about [LAUGHS] or indulge in those reminiscences but to talk about what’s happening in healthcare and medicine. And, you know, as I said, we wrote this book. We did it very, very quickly. Seb, you helped. Bill, you know, you provided a review and some endorsements.  But, you know, honestly, we didn’t know what we were talking about because no one had access to this thing. And so we just made a bunch of guesses. So really, the whole thing I wanted to probe with the two of you is, now with two years of experience out in the world, what, you know, what do we think is happening today?  You know, is AI actually having an impact, positive or negative, on healthcare and medicine? And what do we now think is going to happen in the next two years, five years, or 10 years? And so I realize it’s a little bit too abstract to just ask it that way. So let me just try to narrow the discussion and guide us a little bit.   Um, the kind of administrative and clerical work, paperwork, around healthcare—and we made a lot of guesses about that—that appears to be going well, but, you know, Bill, I know we’ve discussed that sometimes that you think there ought to be a lot more going on. Do you have a viewpoint on how AI is actually finding its way into reducing paperwork?  GATES: Well, I’m stunned … I don’t think there should be a patient-doctor meeting where the AI is not sitting in and both transcribing, offering to help with the paperwork, and even making suggestions, although the doctor will be the one, you know, who makes the final decision about the diagnosis and whatever prescription gets done.   It’s so helpful. You know, when that patient goes home and their, you know, son who wants to understand what happened has some questions, that AI should be available to continue that conversation. And the way you can improve that experience and streamline things and, you know, involve the people who advise you. I don’t understand why that’s not more adopted, because there you still have the human in the loop making that final decision.  But even for, like, follow-up calls to make sure the patient did things, to understand if they have concerns and knowing when to escalate back to the doctor, the benefit is incredible. And, you know, that thing is ready for prime time. That paradigm is ready for prime time, in my view.  LEE: Yeah, there are some good products, but it seems like the number one use right now—and we kind of got this from some of the previous guests in previous episodes—is the use of AI just to respond to emails from patients. [LAUGHTER] Does that make sense to you?  BUBECK: Yeah. So maybe I want to second what Bill was saying but maybe take a step back first. You know, two years ago, like, the concept of clinical scribes, which is one of the things that we’re talking about right now, it would have sounded, in fact, it sounded two years ago, borderline dangerous. Because everybody was worried about hallucinations. What happened if you have this AI listening in and then it transcribes, you know, something wrong?  Now, two years later, I think it’s mostly working. And in fact, it is not yet, you know, fully adopted. You’re right. But it is in production. It is used, you know, in many, many places. So this rate of progress is astounding because it wasn’t obvious that we would be able to overcome those obstacles of hallucination. It’s not to say that hallucinations are fully solved. In the case of the closed system, they are.   Now, I think more generally what’s going on in the background is that there is something that we, that certainly I, underestimated, which is this management overhead. So I think the reason why this is not adopted everywhere is really a training and teaching aspect. People need to be taught, like, those systems, how to interact with them.  And one example that I really like, a study that recently appeared where they tried to use ChatGPT for diagnosis and they were comparing doctors without and with ChatGPT (opens in new tab). And the amazing thing … so this was a set of cases where the accuracy of the doctors alone was around 75%. ChatGPT alone was 90%. So that’s already kind of mind blowing. But then the kicker is that doctors with ChatGPT was 80%.   Intelligence alone is not enough. It’s also how it’s presented, how you interact with it. And ChatGPT, it’s an amazing tool. Obviously, I absolutely love it. But it’s not … you don’t want a doctor to have to type in, you know, prompts and use it that way.  It should be, as Bill was saying, kind of running continuously in the background, sending you notifications. And you have to be really careful of the rate at which those notifications are being sent. Because if they are too frequent, then the doctor will learn to ignore them. So you have to … all of those things matter, in fact, at least as much as the level of intelligence of the machine.  LEE: One of the things I think about, Bill, in that scenario that you described, doctors do some thinking about the patient when they write the note. So, you know, I’m always a little uncertain whether it’s actually … you know, you wouldn’t necessarily want to fully automate this, I don’t think. Or at least there needs to be some prompt to the doctor to make sure that the doctor puts some thought into what happened in the encounter with the patient. Does that make sense to you at all?  GATES: At this stage, you know, I’d still put the onus on the doctor to write the conclusions and the summary and not delegate that.  The tradeoffs you make a little bit are somewhat dependent on the situation you’re in. If you’re in Africa, So, yes, the doctor’s still going to have to do a lot of work, but just the quality of letting the patient and the people around them interact and ask questions and have things explained, that alone is such a quality improvement. It’s mind blowing.   LEE: So since you mentioned, you know, Africa—and, of course, this touches on the mission and some of the priorities of the Gates Foundation and this idea of democratization of access to expert medical care—what’s the most interesting stuff going on right now? Are there people and organizations or technologies that are impressing you or that you’re tracking?  GATES: Yeah. So the Gates Foundation has given out a lot of grants to people in Africa doing education, agriculture but more healthcare examples than anything. And the way these things start off, they often start out either being patient-centric in a narrow situation, like, OK, I’m a pregnant woman; talk to me. Or, I have infectious disease symptoms; talk to me. Or they’re connected to a health worker where they’re helping that worker get their job done. And we have lots of pilots out, you know, in both of those cases.   The dream would be eventually to have the thing the patient consults be so broad that it’s like having a doctor available who understands the local things.   LEE: Right.   GATES: We’re not there yet. But over the next two or three years, you know, particularly given the worsening financial constraints against African health systems, where the withdrawal of money has been dramatic, you know, figuring out how to take this—what I sometimes call “free intelligence”—and build a quality health system around that, we will have to be more radical in low-income countries than any rich country is ever going to be.   LEE: Also, there’s maybe a different regulatory environment, so some of those things maybe are easier? Because right now, I think the world hasn’t figured out how to and whether to regulate, let’s say, an AI that might give a medical diagnosis or write a prescription for a medication.  BUBECK: Yeah. I think one issue with this, and it’s also slowing down the deployment of AI in healthcare more generally, is a lack of proper benchmark. Because, you know, you were mentioning the USMLE [United States Medical Licensing Examination], for example. That’s a great test to test human beings and their knowledge of healthcare and medicine. But it’s not a great test to give to an AI.  It’s not asking the right questions. So finding what are the right questions to test whether an AI system is ready to give diagnosis in a constrained setting, that’s a very, very important direction, which to my surprise, is not yet accelerating at the rate that I was hoping for.  LEE: OK, so that gives me an excuse to get more now into the core AI tech because something I’ve discussed with both of you is this issue of what are the right tests. And you both know the very first test I give to any new spin of an LLM is I present a patient, the results—a mythical patient—the results of my physical exam, my mythical physical exam. Maybe some results of some initial labs. And then I present or propose a differential diagnosis. And if you’re not in medicine, a differential diagnosis you can just think of as a prioritized list of the possible diagnoses that fit with all that data. And in that proposed differential, I always intentionally make two mistakes.  I make a textbook technical error in one of the possible elements of the differential diagnosis, and I have an error of omission. And, you know, I just want to know, does the LLM understand what I’m talking about? And all the good ones out there do now. But then I want to know, can it spot the errors? And then most importantly, is it willing to tell me I’m wrong, that I’ve made a mistake?   That last piece seems really hard for AI today. And so let me ask you first, Seb, because at the time of this taping, of course, there was a new spin of GPT-4o last week that became overly sycophantic. In other words, it was actually prone in that test of mine not only to not tell me I’m wrong, but it actually praised me for the creativity of my differential. [LAUGHTER] What’s up with that?  BUBECK: Yeah, I guess it’s a testament to the fact that training those models is still more of an art than a science. So it’s a difficult job. Just to be clear with the audience, we have rolled back that [LAUGHS] version of GPT-4o, so now we don’t have the sycophant version out there.  Yeah, no, it’s a really difficult question. It has to do … as you said, it’s very technical. It has to do with the post-training and how, like, where do you nudge the model? So, you know, there is this very classical by now technique called RLHF [reinforcement learning from human feedback], where you push the model in the direction of a certain reward model. So the reward model is just telling the model, you know, what behavior is good, what behavior is bad.  But this reward model is itself an LLM, and, you know, Bill was saying at the very beginning of the conversation that we don’t really understand how those LLMs deal with concepts like, you know, where is the capital of France located? Things like that. It is the same thing for this reward model. We don’t know why it says that it prefers one output to another, and whether this is correlated with some sycophancy is, you know, something that we discovered basically just now. That if you push too hard in optimization on this reward model, you will get a sycophant model.  So it’s kind of … what I’m trying to say is we became too good at what we were doing, and we ended up, in fact, in a trap of the reward model.  LEE: I mean, you do want … it’s a difficult balance because you do want models to follow your desires and …  BUBECK: It’s a very difficult, very difficult balance.  LEE: So this brings up then the following question for me, which is the extent to which we think we’ll need to have specially trained models for things. So let me start with you, Bill. Do you have a point of view on whether we will need to, you know, quote-unquote take AI models to med school? Have them specially trained? Like, if you were going to deploy something to give medical care in underserved parts of the world, do we need to do something special to create those models?  GATES: We certainly need to teach them the African languages and the unique dialects so that the multimedia interactions are very high quality. We certainly need to teach them the disease prevalence and unique disease patterns like, you know, neglected tropical diseases and malaria. So we need to gather a set of facts that somebody trying to go for a US customer base, you know, wouldn’t necessarily have that in there.  Those two things are actually very straightforward because the additional training time is small. I’d say for the next few years, we’ll also need to do reinforcement learning about the context of being a doctor and how important certain behaviors are. Humans learn over the course of their life to some degree that, I’m in a different context and the way I behave in terms of being willing to criticize or be nice, you know, how important is it? Who’s here? What’s my relationship to them?   Right now, these machines don’t have that broad social experience. And so if you know it’s going to be used for health things, a lot of reinforcement learning of the very best humans in that context would still be valuable. Eventually, the models will, having read all the literature of the world about good doctors, bad doctors, it’ll understand as soon as you say, “I want you to be a doctor diagnosing somebody.” All of the implicit reinforcement that fits that situation, you know, will be there. LEE: Yeah. GATES: And so I hope three years from now, we don’t have to do that reinforcement learning. But today, for any medical context, you would want a lot of data to reinforce tone, willingness to say things when, you know, there might be something significant at stake.  LEE: Yeah. So, you know, something Bill said, kind of, reminds me of another thing that I think we missed, which is, the context also … and the specialization also pertains to different, I guess, what we still call “modes,” although I don’t know if the idea of multimodal is the same as it was two years ago. But, you know, what do you make of all of the hubbub around—in fact, within Microsoft Research, this is a big deal, but I think we’re far from alone—you know, medical images and vision, video, proteins and molecules, cell, you know, cellular data and so on.  BUBECK: Yeah. OK. So there is a lot to say to everything … to the last, you know, couple of minutes. Maybe on the specialization aspect, you know, I think there is, hiding behind this, a really fundamental scientific question of whether eventually we have a singular AGI [artificial general intelligence] that kind of knows everything and you can just put, you know, explain your own context and it will just get it and understand everything.  That’s one vision. I have to say, I don’t particularly believe in this vision. In fact, we humans are not like that at all. I think, hopefully, we are general intelligences, yet we have to specialize a lot. And, you know, I did myself a lot of RL, reinforcement learning, on mathematics. Like, that’s what I did, you know, spent a lot of time doing that. And I didn’t improve on other aspects. You know, in fact, I probably degraded in other aspects. [LAUGHTER] So it’s … I think it’s an important example to have in mind.  LEE: I think I might disagree with you on that, though, because, like, doesn’t a model have to see both good science and bad science in order to be able to gain the ability to discern between the two?  BUBECK: Yeah, no, that absolutely. I think there is value in seeing the generality, in having a very broad base. But then you, kind of, specialize on verticals. And this is where also, you know, open-weights model, which we haven’t talked about yet, are really important because they allow you to provide this broad base to everyone. And then you can specialize on top of it.  LEE: So we have about three hours of stuff to talk about, but our time is actually running low. BUBECK: Yes, yes, yes.   LEE: So I think I want … there’s a more provocative question. It’s almost a silly question, but I need to ask it of the two of you, which is, is there a future, you know, where AI replaces doctors or replaces, you know, medical specialties that we have today? So what does the world look like, say, five years from now?  GATES: Well, it’s important to distinguish healthcare discovery activity from healthcare delivery activity. We focused mostly on delivery. I think it’s very much within the realm of possibility that the AI is not only accelerating healthcare discovery but substituting for a lot of the roles of, you know, I’m an organic chemist, or I run various types of assays. I can see those, which are, you know, testable-output-type jobs but with still very high value, I can see, you know, some replacement in those areas before the doctor.   The doctor, still understanding the human condition and long-term dialogues, you know, they’ve had a lifetime of reinforcement of that, particularly when you get into areas like mental health. So I wouldn’t say in five years, either people will choose to adopt it, but it will be profound that there’ll be this nearly free intelligence that can do follow-up, that can help you, you know, make sure you went through different possibilities.  And so I’d say, yes, we’ll have doctors, but I’d say healthcare will be massively transformed in its quality and in efficiency by AI in that time period.  LEE: Is there a comparison, useful comparison, say, between doctors and, say, programmers, computer programmers, or doctors and, I don’t know, lawyers?  GATES: Programming is another one that has, kind of, a mathematical correctness to it, you know, and so the objective function that you’re trying to reinforce to, as soon as you can understand the state machines, you can have something that’s “checkable”; that’s correct. So I think programming, you know, which is weird to say, that the machine will beat us at most programming tasks before we let it take over roles that have deep empathy, you know, physical presence and social understanding in them.  LEE: Yeah. By the way, you know, I fully expect in five years that AI will produce mathematical proofs that are checkable for validity, easily checkable, because they’ll be written in a proof-checking language like Lean or something but will be so complex that no human mathematician can understand them. I expect that to happen.   I can imagine in some fields, like cellular biology, we could have the same situation in the future because the molecular pathways, the chemistry, biochemistry of human cells or living cells is as complex as any mathematics, and so it seems possible that we may be in a state where in wet lab, we see, Oh yeah, this actually works, but no one can understand why.  BUBECK: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I really agree with Bill’s distinction of the discovery and the delivery, and indeed, the discovery’s when you can check things, and at the end, there is an artifact that you can verify. You know, you can run the protocol in the wet lab and see [if you have] produced what you wanted. So I absolutely agree with that.   And in fact, you know, we don’t have to talk five years from now. I don’t know if you know, but just recently, there was a paper that was published on a scientific discovery using o3- mini (opens in new tab). So this is really amazing. And, you know, just very quickly, just so people know, it was about this statistical physics model, the frustrated Potts model, which has to do with coloring, and basically, the case of three colors, like, more than two colors was open for a long time, and o3 was able to reduce the case of three colors to two colors.   LEE: Yeah.  BUBECK: Which is just, like, astounding. And this is not … this is now. This is happening right now. So this is something that I personally didn’t expect it would happen so quickly, and it’s due to those reasoning models.   Now, on the delivery side, I would add something more to it for the reason why doctors and, in fact, lawyers and coders will remain for a long time, and it’s because we still don’t understand how those models generalize. Like, at the end of the day, we are not able to tell you when they are confronted with a really new, novel situation, whether they will work or not.  Nobody is able to give you that guarantee. And I think until we understand this generalization better, we’re not going to be willing to just let the system in the wild without human supervision.  LEE: But don’t human doctors, human specialists … so, for example, a cardiologist sees a patient in a certain way that a nephrologist …  BUBECK: Yeah. LEE: … or an endocrinologist might not. BUBECK: That’s right. But another cardiologist will understand and, kind of, expect a certain level of generalization from their peer. And this, we just don’t have it with AI models. Now, of course, you’re exactly right. That generalization is also hard for humans. Like, if you have a human trained for one task and you put them into another task, then you don’t … you often don’t know. LEE: OK. You know, the podcast is focused on what’s happened over the last two years. But now, I’d like one provocative prediction about what you think the world of AI and medicine is going to be at some point in the future. You pick your timeframe. I don’t care if it’s two years or 20 years from now, but, you know, what do you think will be different about AI in medicine in that future than today?  BUBECK: Yeah, I think the deployment is going to accelerate soon. Like, we’re really not missing very much. There is this enormous capability overhang. Like, even if progress completely stopped, with current systems, we can do a lot more than what we’re doing right now. So I think this will … this has to be realized, you know, sooner rather than later.  And I think it’s probably dependent on these benchmarks and proper evaluation and tying this with regulation. So these are things that take time in human society and for good reason. But now we already are at two years; you know, give it another two years and it should be really …   LEE: Will AI prescribe your medicines? Write your prescriptions?  BUBECK: I think yes. I think yes.  LEE: OK. Bill?  GATES: Well, I think the next two years, we’ll have massive pilots, and so the amount of use of the AI, still in a copilot-type mode, you know, we should get millions of patient visits, you know, both in general medicine and in the mental health side, as well. And I think that’s going to build up both the data and the confidence to give the AI some additional autonomy. You know, are you going to let it talk to you at night when you’re panicked about your mental health with some ability to escalate? And, you know, I’ve gone so far as to tell politicians with national health systems that if they deploy AI appropriately, that the quality of care, the overload of the doctors, the improvement in the economics will be enough that their voters will be stunned because they just don’t expect this, and, you know, they could be reelected [LAUGHTER] just on this one thing of fixing what is a very overloaded and economically challenged health system in these rich countries.  You know, my personal role is going to be to make sure that in the poorer countries, there isn’t some lag; in fact, in many cases, that we’ll be more aggressive because, you know, we’re comparing to having no access to doctors at all. And, you know, so I think whether it’s India or Africa, there’ll be lessons that are globally valuable because we need medical intelligence. And, you know, thank god AI is going to provide a lot of that.  LEE: Well, on that optimistic note, I think that’s a good way to end. Bill, Seb, really appreciate all of this.   I think the most fundamental prediction we made in the book is that AI would actually find its way into the practice of medicine, and I think that that at least has come true, maybe in different ways than we expected, but it’s come true, and I think it’ll only accelerate from here. So thanks again, both of you.  [TRANSITION MUSIC]  GATES: Yeah. Thanks, you guys.  BUBECK: Thank you, Peter. Thanks, Bill.  LEE: I just always feel such a sense of privilege to have a chance to interact and actually work with people like Bill and Sébastien.    With Bill, I’m always amazed at how practically minded he is. He’s really thinking about the nuts and bolts of what AI might be able to do for people, and his thoughts about underserved parts of the world, the idea that we might actually be able to empower people with access to expert medical knowledge, I think is both inspiring and amazing.   And then, Seb, Sébastien Bubeck, he’s just absolutely a brilliant mind. He has a really firm grip on the deep mathematics of artificial intelligence and brings that to bear in his research and development work. And where that mathematics takes him isn’t just into the nuts and bolts of algorithms but into philosophical questions about the nature of intelligence.   One of the things that Sébastien brought up was the state of evaluation of AI systems. And indeed, he was fairly critical in our conversation. But of course, the world of AI research and development is just moving so fast, and indeed, since we recorded our conversation, OpenAI, in fact, released a new evaluation metric that is directly relevant to medical applications, and that is something called HealthBench. And Microsoft Research also released a new evaluation approach or process called ADeLe.   HealthBench and ADeLe are examples of new approaches to evaluating AI models that are less about testing their knowledge and ability to pass multiple-choice exams and instead are evaluation approaches designed to assess how well AI models are able to complete tasks that actually arise every day in typical healthcare or biomedical research settings. These are examples of really important good work that speak to how well AI models work in the real world of healthcare and biomedical research and how well they can collaborate with human beings in those settings.  You know, I asked Bill and Seb to make some predictions about the future. You know, my own answer, I expect that we’re going to be able to use AI to change how we diagnose patients, change how we decide treatment options.   If you’re a doctor or a nurse and you encounter a patient, you’ll ask questions, do a physical exam, you know, call out for labs just like you do today, but then you’ll be able to engage with AI based on all of that data and just ask, you know, based on all the other people who have gone through the same experience, who have similar data, how were they diagnosed? How were they treated? What were their outcomes? And what does that mean for the patient I have right now? Some people call it the “patients like me” paradigm. And I think that’s going to become real because of AI within our lifetimes. That idea of really grounding the delivery in healthcare and medical practice through data and intelligence, I actually now don’t see any barriers to that future becoming real.  [THEME MUSIC]  I’d like to extend another big thank you to Bill and Sébastien for their time. And to our listeners, as always, it’s a pleasure to have you along for the ride. I hope you’ll join us for our remaining conversations, as well as a second coauthor roundtable with Carey and Zak.   Until next time.   [MUSIC FADES]
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  • [GamingTech] Nintendo Switch 2 - A Very Poor LCD Display / No Real HDR Support / 450 Nits Max / Raised Blacks / Tested On Display And In Docking Mode

    Sangral
    Powered by Friendship™
    Member

    Feb 17, 2022

    8,649

    From one of the biggest and most dedicated HDR analysis channels out there.

    Thought that's a big enough topic on its own, because of the analysis, for a separate thread.

    View:

    450 nits maximum peak brightnessGames like Zelda Breath of the Wild have raised blacks even in Docked HDR gameplay with a raised black level floor and the game looking washed out

    HDR docked can be good if games are optimized for it like Cyberpunk, which he refers to being exactly like on PS5 and PC, HDR wise or Fast Fusion as one of the rare games that actually have a good black level floor in HDR
     

    Last edited: 39 minutes ago

    blueredandgold
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    8,739

    Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please?
     

    gabdeg
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    7,420



    Sadly what I expected since the moment we learned it was edge-lit LCD. Would've at least expected nigher peak nits though.
     

    Kouriozan
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    25,072

    A shame, because Switch 2 is like the first time I'll see HDR, as my old TV isn't compatible :/
     

    Paper Cheese
    Member

    Oct 9, 2019

    558

    I've got to assume this is the sort of thing that most of us hi-fi tech illiterate lot won't notice until they bring out a better screen model in a few years.
     

    Fortinbras
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    2,073

    Well that sucks but it's Nintendo...did anyone expect anything different?

    I'm only going to use it docked so hopefully they can fix the HDR via update. 

    Universal Acclaim
    Member

    Oct 5, 2024

    2,482

    Not surprised, but not a big issue for me personally.
     

    Antony
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    4,054

    Ahhh the obligatory Nintendo Crap Displayit's positively tradition at this point
     

    Friendly Bear
    Member

    Jan 11, 2019

    4,162

    I Don’t Care WhereEven with an edge lit LCD, I was expecting brighter highlights. A lot of the preview event coverage made it sound like the screen was insanely bright, and that's clearly not the case.
     

    NoSpin
    Member

    Nov 1, 2017

    83

    As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :)
     

    Mivey
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    20,753

    Paper Cheese said:

    I've got to assume this is the sort of thing that most of us hi-fi tech illiterate lot won't notice until they bring out a better screen model in a few years.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    the raised blacks on dark content is pretty clear if you play in any kind of darker environment, if you have any kind of OLED screen to compare. Case in point, if you own a Switch 1 OLED, you'll notice the stark differences for certain kinds of content right away. OTOH, if you have been using a launch Switch 1 and never had any issues with how it looks, you'll be fine. Just make sure to stay away from OLED screen, lest you gain the ability to see the differences.
     

    Decarb
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    9,280

    HDR on edge-lit LCD is kind of a scam anyway.

    Kouriozan said:

    A shame, because Switch 2 is like the first time I'll see HDR, as my old TV isn't compatible :/

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    If you have a phone made in last couple of years you've probably seen HDR.
     

    horkrux
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    6,531

    Well, kinda expected, so I'm not too bothered by it. Not like you can change it.
     

    Maximo
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    11,041

    Nintendo saving that sweet sweet OLED for a refresh.
     

    Buddy
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    1,773

    Germany

    I have mine in my hands right now.... don't know about HDR stuff too much but Mario Kart looks gorgeous on it.
     

    DieH@rd
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    12,083

    Decarb said:

    HDR on edge-lit LCD is kind of a scam anyway.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    ^ this.
     

    cw_sasuke
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    30,321

    Most of this stuff was clear from the Preview Events, at least DF talked about it.

    Didn't seem to bother a majority of people playing though. Was pretty much set when it wasn't going to be OLED. 

    John Frost
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    9,658

    Canada

    Well, that's disappointing..
     

    Milk
    Prophet of Truth
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    4,301

    NoSpin said:

    As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :)

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers.
     

    345
    Member

    Oct 30, 2017

    10,410

    it's about as good as i was expecting. HDR on an LCD basically means "we're actually going to tune content for the screen's color gamut", and it does the job on that level. mario kart does look punchier and more vibrant than it would in SDR while obviously not offering the same contrast as an OLED.

    dunno who this guy is but if he's really "very disappointed" i'm not sure he knows very much about screens. i'm sure it's just ragebait 

    JimNastics
    Member

    Jan 11, 2018

    1,607

    345 said:

    'm sure it's just ragebait

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    No way!! :D You could tell just from the thumbnail. 

    Aleh
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    20,238

    "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is.
     

    cw_sasuke
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    30,321

    Milk said:

    It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Seems to be on par what you would get with an LCD.

    The OG Switch 1 has a bad LCD Screen, the OG Steam Deck has an even worse.....this video is making it seem like Switch 2 Screen is as bad as these screens or even worse. When it seems to be quite solid for an LCD, but in certain areas it can compete with an OLED. 

    Alex840
    Member

    Oct 31, 2017

    5,373

    And yet most of the games media doing previews have been like "oh I can barely tell the difference compared to the OLED".

    Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them? 

    Universal Acclaim
    Member

    Oct 5, 2024

    2,482

    SDR low brightness in a dark room then
     

    Dranakin
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    2,999

    Ooof. Although, I will admit, I probably can't tell between good and bad sceens. I mean, I have the Ayaneo Pocket DMG and everyone says it's an amazing screen. It looks normal to me?

    Alex840 said:

    Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them?

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    An OLED 120hz? The Odin 2 Portal has one, but I don't have a sense of the component cost. 

    Kabuki Waq
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    6,034

    The screen is a pretty big downgrade from oled but a huge upgrade from the OG.

    I really miss the perfect blacks. MKW is gorgeous but would have looked so much better on an oled screen 

    Harmen
    Member

    Aug 30, 2023

    1,462

    The HDR and lifted black should not come as a surprise. But the video doesn't really analyze why it would be below average for an LCD screen? Colours? Pixel response time? For example the original Switch 1 LCD look reaaally bad to me these days, but my Steam Deck LCD screenlooks good to me outside of raised blacks in dark scenes.
     

    nogoodnamesleft
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    8,605

    Yep. I fucking knew it.

    Knew it was going to be trash. LCD is trash as a standardWill wait for oled version. 

    cw_sasuke
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    30,321

    Aleh said:

    "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Focus of the whole channel is HDR. Dude is likely just used to comparing HDR content on very expensive OLED Screens.
    So HDR bad = everything trash for him.

    Something that won't be the case for 99% of users out there. Its the single voter issue again, disregarding everything else because of one focus point and expecting every one to feel the same way about it. 

    Serif
    Member

    Oct 31, 2024

    410

    Alex840 said:

    Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them?

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    An OLED 1080p HDR VRR 120 Hz screen does not sound like it would be cost-effective.

    It makes sense to establish baseline specs like 120 Hz support for developers to target and upgrade to OLED in the future instead of trying to add 120 Hz support later on. 

    fourfourfun
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    9,149

    England

    Aleh said:

    "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    If you're an enthusiast display platform, you're going to be benchmarking against the absolute best. So comparatively it could not be as good. Obviously it doesn't take into account what the entire platform delivers as a whole and the price it was trying to hit. It's a rather zoomed in look at just one thing. 

    RailWays
    One Winged Slayer
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    18,449

    Still sounds like an upgrade from the launch Switch LCD, though those nits are pretty low
     

    Koklusz
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    3,971

    blueredandgold said:

    Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please?

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    The screen is bad, and the native HDR implementation in the games he tested is shoddy.
     

    NoSpin
    Member

    Nov 1, 2017

    83

    Milk said:

    It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games. 

    Wasp
    Member

    Oct 29, 2017

    351

    It's a shame they couldn't release an OLED SKU at launch. I would have happily paid an extra for an OLED model and I'm sure many are the same.

    I know I'll be keeping my box in pristine condition to get maximum value when I trade the console in for a Switch 2 OLED in hopefully a few years. 

    Last edited: 51 minutes ago

    pswii60
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    28,932

    The Milky Way

    This means that for handheld purposes, Switch 2 is actually a downgrade on Switch 1 OLED, for any games that aren't taking advantage of the additional power/resolution.

    So basically, you might want to hold on to your Switch 1 OLED for all your pixel art indies, and any games not getting a patch/upgrade. 

    Shadow
    One Winged Slayer
    Member

    Oct 28, 2017

    4,837

    Kinda what I expected. Being LCD with HDR especially on portable device at that is never a good combo. I'll just play on my OLED TV when I want to get the full experience, which again, is what I expected.

    I hope it's a bit usable outside at least. I was hoping closer to 600 nits for that alone, as the Deck OLED is JUST usable on a sunny day. But you can't have everything I guess. 

    UnderJollyRoger
    Member

    Jun 16, 2023

    648

    Germany

    The screen is also my biggest concern of the unit. The og switch has an absolutely atrocious screen and LCDs just dont cut it anymore for me. The low nits will make it again pretty difficult to properly play outside.

    I am commuting a lot and sitting on a train with a bit of sun outside was already too much for the og switch.

    Here is hoping that an OLED variant will come earlier this time. 

    Milk
    Prophet of Truth
    Avenger

    Oct 25, 2017

    4,301

    NoSpin said:

    I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    You're implying being critical means you're not also enjoying the video games.

    I'm critical of tons of my favorite games. I'm still having a fun time with the games  

    HandsomeCharles
    Member

    Oct 26, 2017

    4,717

    Disappointing to hear, but as someone who thinks his OG switch's screen is fine, I'm sure it won't really bother me.
     

    OP

    OP

    Sangral
    Powered by Friendship™
    Member

    Feb 17, 2022

    8,649

    blueredandgold said:

    Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please?

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I'm trying to add some bullet points to the OT. 

    Ghost Slayer
    Member

    Oct 30, 2017

    1,433

    is it like PS Portal LCD screen? Because I think the Portal LCD screen is really good
     

    Decarb
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    9,280

    pswii60 said:

    This means that for handheld purposes, Switch 2 is actually a downgrade on Switch 1 OLED, for any games that aren't taking advantage of the additional power/resolution.

    So basically, you might want to hold on to your Switch 1 OLED for all your pixel art indies, and any games not getting a patch/upgrade.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Oh I don't think there's any doubt from pure IQ perspective its a downgrade from Switch 1 OLED. Even without HDR support at max brightness that screen pops like nothing else.
     

    Maximo
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    11,041

    NoSpin said:

    I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    This is a silly comparison since he's not reviewing a screen from 1996 when it first came out, screen technology has exploded since the first iPhone, seems like a needless jab. 

    Melhadf
    Member

    Dec 25, 2017

    2,528

    My understanding is that 400nits is the minimum for HDR. So it's technically HDR, but usually dismissed by purists as not "real HDR" such as this vid with his HDR10 testing. So it's a definite improvement over SDR content, but Nintendo then used an LCD instead of OLED so it most likely looks worse than the OLED switch.

    Feels like Nintendo is using minimum HDR as a crutch to cheap out on the screen and people are saying it's not "TRUE HDR" even though it's completely within spec. 

    vegtro
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    808

    Aleh said:

    "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    When I first booted the Switch 2, I wanted to believe the screen will be ok from the news. Nope, the screen pretty much is pretty bad compared to OLED.
     

    Alvis
    Saw the truth behind the copied door
    Member

    Oct 25, 2017

    12,148

    EU

    A bit of a shame, meh

    NoSpin said:

    As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :)

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Yes indeed, this dude is set on a mission to personally ruin your experience, and he's now crying in a corner knowing that he failed.
     

    fourfourfun
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    9,149

    England

    Shadow said:

    But you can't have everything I guess.

    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I think that's the thing, they went for resolution and VRR as a priority.

    I'm sure I also read on here a while ago that it also centres around the availability of appropriate screens. OLED only became viable after a certain point. 

    Pargon
    Member

    Oct 27, 2017

    14,110

    I thought I had appropriately-low expectations, but I was thinking it would be a 600 nit 1800:1 panel.

    Not 450 nits and 900:1.

    The only thing "HDR" about it is probably that content will be authored to make use of a wider color gamut. 
    #gamingtech #nintendo #switch #very #poor
    [GamingTech] Nintendo Switch 2 - A Very Poor LCD Display / No Real HDR Support / 450 Nits Max / Raised Blacks / Tested On Display And In Docking Mode
    Sangral Powered by Friendship™ Member Feb 17, 2022 8,649 From one of the biggest and most dedicated HDR analysis channels out there. Thought that's a big enough topic on its own, because of the analysis, for a separate thread. View: 450 nits maximum peak brightnessGames like Zelda Breath of the Wild have raised blacks even in Docked HDR gameplay with a raised black level floor and the game looking washed out HDR docked can be good if games are optimized for it like Cyberpunk, which he refers to being exactly like on PS5 and PC, HDR wise or Fast Fusion as one of the rare games that actually have a good black level floor in HDR   Last edited: 39 minutes ago blueredandgold Member Oct 25, 2017 8,739 Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please?   gabdeg Member Oct 26, 2017 7,420 🐝 Sadly what I expected since the moment we learned it was edge-lit LCD. Would've at least expected nigher peak nits though.   Kouriozan Member Oct 25, 2017 25,072 A shame, because Switch 2 is like the first time I'll see HDR, as my old TV isn't compatible :/   Paper Cheese Member Oct 9, 2019 558 I've got to assume this is the sort of thing that most of us hi-fi tech illiterate lot won't notice until they bring out a better screen model in a few years.   Fortinbras Member Oct 27, 2017 2,073 Well that sucks but it's Nintendo...did anyone expect anything different? I'm only going to use it docked so hopefully they can fix the HDR via update.  Universal Acclaim Member Oct 5, 2024 2,482 Not surprised, but not a big issue for me personally.   Antony Member Oct 25, 2017 4,054 Ahhh the obligatory Nintendo Crap Displayit's positively tradition at this point   Friendly Bear Member Jan 11, 2019 4,162 I Don’t Care WhereEven with an edge lit LCD, I was expecting brighter highlights. A lot of the preview event coverage made it sound like the screen was insanely bright, and that's clearly not the case.   NoSpin Member Nov 1, 2017 83 As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :)   Mivey Member Oct 25, 2017 20,753 Paper Cheese said: I've got to assume this is the sort of thing that most of us hi-fi tech illiterate lot won't notice until they bring out a better screen model in a few years. Click to expand... Click to shrink... the raised blacks on dark content is pretty clear if you play in any kind of darker environment, if you have any kind of OLED screen to compare. Case in point, if you own a Switch 1 OLED, you'll notice the stark differences for certain kinds of content right away. OTOH, if you have been using a launch Switch 1 and never had any issues with how it looks, you'll be fine. Just make sure to stay away from OLED screen, lest you gain the ability to see the differences.   Decarb Member Oct 27, 2017 9,280 HDR on edge-lit LCD is kind of a scam anyway. Kouriozan said: A shame, because Switch 2 is like the first time I'll see HDR, as my old TV isn't compatible :/ Click to expand... Click to shrink... If you have a phone made in last couple of years you've probably seen HDR.   horkrux Member Oct 27, 2017 6,531 Well, kinda expected, so I'm not too bothered by it. Not like you can change it.   Maximo Member Oct 25, 2017 11,041 Nintendo saving that sweet sweet OLED for a refresh.   Buddy Member Oct 25, 2017 1,773 Germany I have mine in my hands right now.... don't know about HDR stuff too much but Mario Kart looks gorgeous on it.   DieH@rd Member Oct 26, 2017 12,083 Decarb said: HDR on edge-lit LCD is kind of a scam anyway. Click to expand... Click to shrink... ^ this.   cw_sasuke Member Oct 27, 2017 30,321 Most of this stuff was clear from the Preview Events, at least DF talked about it. Didn't seem to bother a majority of people playing though. Was pretty much set when it wasn't going to be OLED.  John Frost Member Oct 27, 2017 9,658 Canada Well, that's disappointing..   Milk Prophet of Truth Avenger Oct 25, 2017 4,301 NoSpin said: As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :) Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers.   345 Member Oct 30, 2017 10,410 it's about as good as i was expecting. HDR on an LCD basically means "we're actually going to tune content for the screen's color gamut", and it does the job on that level. mario kart does look punchier and more vibrant than it would in SDR while obviously not offering the same contrast as an OLED. dunno who this guy is but if he's really "very disappointed" i'm not sure he knows very much about screens. i'm sure it's just ragebait  JimNastics Member Jan 11, 2018 1,607 345 said: 'm sure it's just ragebait Click to expand... Click to shrink... No way!! :D You could tell just from the thumbnail.  Aleh Member Oct 27, 2017 20,238 "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is.   cw_sasuke Member Oct 27, 2017 30,321 Milk said: It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Seems to be on par what you would get with an LCD. The OG Switch 1 has a bad LCD Screen, the OG Steam Deck has an even worse.....this video is making it seem like Switch 2 Screen is as bad as these screens or even worse. When it seems to be quite solid for an LCD, but in certain areas it can compete with an OLED.  Alex840 Member Oct 31, 2017 5,373 And yet most of the games media doing previews have been like "oh I can barely tell the difference compared to the OLED". Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them?  Universal Acclaim Member Oct 5, 2024 2,482 SDR low brightness in a dark room then   Dranakin Member Oct 27, 2017 2,999 Ooof. Although, I will admit, I probably can't tell between good and bad sceens. I mean, I have the Ayaneo Pocket DMG and everyone says it's an amazing screen. It looks normal to me? Alex840 said: Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them? Click to expand... Click to shrink... An OLED 120hz? The Odin 2 Portal has one, but I don't have a sense of the component cost.  Kabuki Waq Member Oct 26, 2017 6,034 The screen is a pretty big downgrade from oled but a huge upgrade from the OG. I really miss the perfect blacks. MKW is gorgeous but would have looked so much better on an oled screen  Harmen Member Aug 30, 2023 1,462 The HDR and lifted black should not come as a surprise. But the video doesn't really analyze why it would be below average for an LCD screen? Colours? Pixel response time? For example the original Switch 1 LCD look reaaally bad to me these days, but my Steam Deck LCD screenlooks good to me outside of raised blacks in dark scenes.   nogoodnamesleft Member Oct 25, 2017 8,605 Yep. I fucking knew it. Knew it was going to be trash. LCD is trash as a standardWill wait for oled version.  cw_sasuke Member Oct 27, 2017 30,321 Aleh said: "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Focus of the whole channel is HDR. Dude is likely just used to comparing HDR content on very expensive OLED Screens. So HDR bad = everything trash for him. Something that won't be the case for 99% of users out there. Its the single voter issue again, disregarding everything else because of one focus point and expecting every one to feel the same way about it.  Serif Member Oct 31, 2024 410 Alex840 said: Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them? Click to expand... Click to shrink... An OLED 1080p HDR VRR 120 Hz screen does not sound like it would be cost-effective. It makes sense to establish baseline specs like 120 Hz support for developers to target and upgrade to OLED in the future instead of trying to add 120 Hz support later on.  fourfourfun Member Oct 27, 2017 9,149 England Aleh said: "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... If you're an enthusiast display platform, you're going to be benchmarking against the absolute best. So comparatively it could not be as good. Obviously it doesn't take into account what the entire platform delivers as a whole and the price it was trying to hit. It's a rather zoomed in look at just one thing.  RailWays One Winged Slayer Avenger Oct 25, 2017 18,449 Still sounds like an upgrade from the launch Switch LCD, though those nits are pretty low   Koklusz Member Oct 27, 2017 3,971 blueredandgold said: Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please? Click to expand... Click to shrink... The screen is bad, and the native HDR implementation in the games he tested is shoddy.   NoSpin Member Nov 1, 2017 83 Milk said: It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games.  Wasp Member Oct 29, 2017 351 It's a shame they couldn't release an OLED SKU at launch. I would have happily paid an extra for an OLED model and I'm sure many are the same. I know I'll be keeping my box in pristine condition to get maximum value when I trade the console in for a Switch 2 OLED in hopefully a few years.  Last edited: 51 minutes ago pswii60 Member Oct 27, 2017 28,932 The Milky Way This means that for handheld purposes, Switch 2 is actually a downgrade on Switch 1 OLED, for any games that aren't taking advantage of the additional power/resolution. So basically, you might want to hold on to your Switch 1 OLED for all your pixel art indies, and any games not getting a patch/upgrade.  Shadow One Winged Slayer Member Oct 28, 2017 4,837 Kinda what I expected. Being LCD with HDR especially on portable device at that is never a good combo. I'll just play on my OLED TV when I want to get the full experience, which again, is what I expected. I hope it's a bit usable outside at least. I was hoping closer to 600 nits for that alone, as the Deck OLED is JUST usable on a sunny day. But you can't have everything I guess.  UnderJollyRoger Member Jun 16, 2023 648 Germany The screen is also my biggest concern of the unit. The og switch has an absolutely atrocious screen and LCDs just dont cut it anymore for me. The low nits will make it again pretty difficult to properly play outside. I am commuting a lot and sitting on a train with a bit of sun outside was already too much for the og switch. Here is hoping that an OLED variant will come earlier this time.  Milk Prophet of Truth Avenger Oct 25, 2017 4,301 NoSpin said: I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... You're implying being critical means you're not also enjoying the video games. I'm critical of tons of my favorite games. I'm still having a fun time with the games 🤷  HandsomeCharles Member Oct 26, 2017 4,717 Disappointing to hear, but as someone who thinks his OG switch's screen is fine, I'm sure it won't really bother me.   OP OP Sangral Powered by Friendship™ Member Feb 17, 2022 8,649 blueredandgold said: Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please? Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm trying to add some bullet points to the OT.  Ghost Slayer Member Oct 30, 2017 1,433 is it like PS Portal LCD screen? Because I think the Portal LCD screen is really good   Decarb Member Oct 27, 2017 9,280 pswii60 said: This means that for handheld purposes, Switch 2 is actually a downgrade on Switch 1 OLED, for any games that aren't taking advantage of the additional power/resolution. So basically, you might want to hold on to your Switch 1 OLED for all your pixel art indies, and any games not getting a patch/upgrade. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Oh I don't think there's any doubt from pure IQ perspective its a downgrade from Switch 1 OLED. Even without HDR support at max brightness that screen pops like nothing else.   Maximo Member Oct 25, 2017 11,041 NoSpin said: I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... This is a silly comparison since he's not reviewing a screen from 1996 when it first came out, screen technology has exploded since the first iPhone, seems like a needless jab.  Melhadf Member Dec 25, 2017 2,528 My understanding is that 400nits is the minimum for HDR. So it's technically HDR, but usually dismissed by purists as not "real HDR" such as this vid with his HDR10 testing. So it's a definite improvement over SDR content, but Nintendo then used an LCD instead of OLED so it most likely looks worse than the OLED switch. Feels like Nintendo is using minimum HDR as a crutch to cheap out on the screen and people are saying it's not "TRUE HDR" even though it's completely within spec.  vegtro Member Oct 25, 2017 808 Aleh said: "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... When I first booted the Switch 2, I wanted to believe the screen will be ok from the news. Nope, the screen pretty much is pretty bad compared to OLED.   Alvis Saw the truth behind the copied door Member Oct 25, 2017 12,148 EU A bit of a shame, meh NoSpin said: As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :) Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yes indeed, this dude is set on a mission to personally ruin your experience, and he's now crying in a corner knowing that he failed.   fourfourfun Member Oct 27, 2017 9,149 England Shadow said: But you can't have everything I guess. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I think that's the thing, they went for resolution and VRR as a priority. I'm sure I also read on here a while ago that it also centres around the availability of appropriate screens. OLED only became viable after a certain point.  Pargon Member Oct 27, 2017 14,110 I thought I had appropriately-low expectations, but I was thinking it would be a 600 nit 1800:1 panel. Not 450 nits and 900:1. The only thing "HDR" about it is probably that content will be authored to make use of a wider color gamut.  #gamingtech #nintendo #switch #very #poor
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    [GamingTech] Nintendo Switch 2 - A Very Poor LCD Display / No Real HDR Support / 450 Nits Max / Raised Blacks / Tested On Display And In Docking Mode
    Sangral Powered by Friendship™ Member Feb 17, 2022 8,649 From one of the biggest and most dedicated HDR analysis channels out there. Thought that's a big enough topic on its own, because of the analysis, for a separate thread. View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N637VB4FYxg 450 nits maximum peak brightness (personal comparison, Switch OLED without any HDR has 340 nits, an LG C2 TV in HDR has 800 nits, Steam Deck OLED screen has 1000 nits, Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra 2600 nits.) Games like Zelda Breath of the Wild have raised blacks even in Docked HDR gameplay with a raised black level floor and the game looking washed out HDR docked can be good if games are optimized for it like Cyberpunk, which he refers to being exactly like on PS5 and PC, HDR wise or Fast Fusion as one of the rare games that actually have a good black level floor in HDR   Last edited: 39 minutes ago blueredandgold Member Oct 25, 2017 8,739 Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please?   gabdeg Member Oct 26, 2017 7,420 🐝 Sadly what I expected since the moment we learned it was edge-lit LCD. Would've at least expected nigher peak nits though.   Kouriozan Member Oct 25, 2017 25,072 A shame, because Switch 2 is like the first time I'll see HDR, as my old TV isn't compatible :/   Paper Cheese Member Oct 9, 2019 558 I've got to assume this is the sort of thing that most of us hi-fi tech illiterate lot won't notice until they bring out a better screen model in a few years.   Fortinbras Member Oct 27, 2017 2,073 Well that sucks but it's Nintendo...did anyone expect anything different? I'm only going to use it docked so hopefully they can fix the HDR via update.  Universal Acclaim Member Oct 5, 2024 2,482 Not surprised, but not a big issue for me personally.   Antony Member Oct 25, 2017 4,054 Ahhh the obligatory Nintendo Crap Display (Before You Buy a Whole New Model to Get a Decent One) it's positively tradition at this point   Friendly Bear Member Jan 11, 2019 4,162 I Don’t Care Where (Just Far) Even with an edge lit LCD, I was expecting brighter highlights. A lot of the preview event coverage made it sound like the screen was insanely bright, and that's clearly not the case.   NoSpin Member Nov 1, 2017 83 As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :)   Mivey Member Oct 25, 2017 20,753 Paper Cheese said: I've got to assume this is the sort of thing that most of us hi-fi tech illiterate lot won't notice until they bring out a better screen model in a few years. Click to expand... Click to shrink... the raised blacks on dark content is pretty clear if you play in any kind of darker environment, if you have any kind of OLED screen to compare. Case in point, if you own a Switch 1 OLED, you'll notice the stark differences for certain kinds of content right away. OTOH, if you have been using a launch Switch 1 and never had any issues with how it looks, you'll be fine. Just make sure to stay away from OLED screen, lest you gain the ability to see the differences.   Decarb Member Oct 27, 2017 9,280 HDR on edge-lit LCD is kind of a scam anyway. Kouriozan said: A shame, because Switch 2 is like the first time I'll see HDR, as my old TV isn't compatible :/ Click to expand... Click to shrink... If you have a phone made in last couple of years you've probably seen HDR.   horkrux Member Oct 27, 2017 6,531 Well, kinda expected, so I'm not too bothered by it. Not like you can change it.   Maximo Member Oct 25, 2017 11,041 Nintendo saving that sweet sweet OLED for a refresh.   Buddy Member Oct 25, 2017 1,773 Germany I have mine in my hands right now.... don't know about HDR stuff too much but Mario Kart looks gorgeous on it.   DieH@rd Member Oct 26, 2017 12,083 Decarb said: HDR on edge-lit LCD is kind of a scam anyway. Click to expand... Click to shrink... ^ this.   cw_sasuke Member Oct 27, 2017 30,321 Most of this stuff was clear from the Preview Events, at least DF talked about it. Didn't seem to bother a majority of people playing though. Was pretty much set when it wasn't going to be OLED.  John Frost Member Oct 27, 2017 9,658 Canada Well, that's disappointing..   Milk Prophet of Truth Avenger Oct 25, 2017 4,301 NoSpin said: As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :) Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers.   345 Member Oct 30, 2017 10,410 it's about as good as i was expecting. HDR on an LCD basically means "we're actually going to tune content for the screen's color gamut", and it does the job on that level. mario kart does look punchier and more vibrant than it would in SDR while obviously not offering the same contrast as an OLED. dunno who this guy is but if he's really "very disappointed" i'm not sure he knows very much about screens. i'm sure it's just ragebait  JimNastics Member Jan 11, 2018 1,607 345 said: 'm sure it's just ragebait Click to expand... Click to shrink... No way!! :D You could tell just from the thumbnail.  Aleh Member Oct 27, 2017 20,238 "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is.   cw_sasuke Member Oct 27, 2017 30,321 Milk said: It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Seems to be on par what you would get with an LCD. The OG Switch 1 has a bad LCD Screen, the OG Steam Deck has an even worse.....this video is making it seem like Switch 2 Screen is as bad as these screens or even worse. When it seems to be quite solid for an LCD, but in certain areas it can compete with an OLED.  Alex840 Member Oct 31, 2017 5,373 And yet most of the games media doing previews have been like "oh I can barely tell the difference compared to the OLED". Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them?  Universal Acclaim Member Oct 5, 2024 2,482 SDR low brightness in a dark room then   Dranakin Member Oct 27, 2017 2,999 Ooof. Although, I will admit, I probably can't tell between good and bad sceens. I mean, I have the Ayaneo Pocket DMG and everyone says it's an amazing screen. It looks normal to me? Alex840 said: Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them? Click to expand... Click to shrink... An OLED 120hz? The Odin 2 Portal has one (smaller size and without VRR), but I don't have a sense of the component cost.  Kabuki Waq Member Oct 26, 2017 6,034 The screen is a pretty big downgrade from oled but a huge upgrade from the OG. I really miss the perfect blacks. MKW is gorgeous but would have looked so much better on an oled screen  Harmen Member Aug 30, 2023 1,462 The HDR and lifted black should not come as a surprise. But the video doesn't really analyze why it would be below average for an LCD screen? Colours? Pixel response time? For example the original Switch 1 LCD look reaaally bad to me these days, but my Steam Deck LCD screen (similar resolution) looks good to me outside of raised blacks in dark scenes (which I do get used to).   nogoodnamesleft Member Oct 25, 2017 8,605 Yep. I fucking knew it. Knew it was going to be trash. LCD is trash as a standard (yes miniled included with its trash ass pixel response time) Will wait for oled version.  cw_sasuke Member Oct 27, 2017 30,321 Aleh said: "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Focus of the whole channel is HDR. Dude is likely just used to comparing HDR content on very expensive OLED Screens. So HDR bad = everything trash for him. Something that won't be the case for 99% of users out there. Its the single voter issue again, disregarding everything else because of one focus point and expecting every one to feel the same way about it.  Serif Member Oct 31, 2024 410 Alex840 said: Am really sad they took a step back with this, how much more could an OLED screen have cost them? Click to expand... Click to shrink... An OLED 1080p HDR VRR 120 Hz screen does not sound like it would be cost-effective. It makes sense to establish baseline specs like 120 Hz support for developers to target and upgrade to OLED in the future instead of trying to add 120 Hz support later on.  fourfourfun Member Oct 27, 2017 9,149 England Aleh said: "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... If you're an enthusiast display platform, you're going to be benchmarking against the absolute best. So comparatively it could not be as good. Obviously it doesn't take into account what the entire platform delivers as a whole and the price it was trying to hit. It's a rather zoomed in look at just one thing.  RailWays One Winged Slayer Avenger Oct 25, 2017 18,449 Still sounds like an upgrade from the launch Switch LCD, though those nits are pretty low   Koklusz Member Oct 27, 2017 3,971 blueredandgold said: Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please? Click to expand... Click to shrink... The screen is bad, and the native HDR implementation in the games he tested is shoddy.   NoSpin Member Nov 1, 2017 83 Milk said: It's not a personal attack on you. Pointing out objective shortcomings about the technology is a good thing for consumers. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games.  Wasp Member Oct 29, 2017 351 It's a shame they couldn't release an OLED SKU at launch. I would have happily paid an extra $100 for an OLED model and I'm sure many are the same. I know I'll be keeping my box in pristine condition to get maximum value when I trade the console in for a Switch 2 OLED in hopefully a few years.  Last edited: 51 minutes ago pswii60 Member Oct 27, 2017 28,932 The Milky Way This means that for handheld purposes, Switch 2 is actually a downgrade on Switch 1 OLED, for any games that aren't taking advantage of the additional power/resolution. So basically, you might want to hold on to your Switch 1 OLED for all your pixel art indies, and any games not getting a patch/upgrade.  Shadow One Winged Slayer Member Oct 28, 2017 4,837 Kinda what I expected. Being LCD with HDR especially on portable device at that is never a good combo. I'll just play on my OLED TV when I want to get the full experience, which again, is what I expected. I hope it's a bit usable outside at least. I was hoping closer to 600 nits for that alone, as the Deck OLED is JUST usable on a sunny day. But you can't have everything I guess.  UnderJollyRoger Member Jun 16, 2023 648 Germany The screen is also my biggest concern of the unit. The og switch has an absolutely atrocious screen and LCDs just dont cut it anymore for me. The low nits will make it again pretty difficult to properly play outside. I am commuting a lot and sitting on a train with a bit of sun outside was already too much for the og switch. Here is hoping that an OLED variant will come earlier this time.  Milk Prophet of Truth Avenger Oct 25, 2017 4,301 NoSpin said: I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... You're implying being critical means you're not also enjoying the video games. I'm critical of tons of my favorite games. I'm still having a fun time with the games 🤷  HandsomeCharles Member Oct 26, 2017 4,717 Disappointing to hear, but as someone who thinks his OG switch's screen is fine, I'm sure it won't really bother me.   OP OP Sangral Powered by Friendship™ Member Feb 17, 2022 8,649 blueredandgold said: Could you please translate for those of us who haven't been able to watch or digest after we saw this posted in the other thread please? Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm trying to add some bullet points to the OT.  Ghost Slayer Member Oct 30, 2017 1,433 is it like PS Portal LCD screen? Because I think the Portal LCD screen is really good   Decarb Member Oct 27, 2017 9,280 pswii60 said: This means that for handheld purposes, Switch 2 is actually a downgrade on Switch 1 OLED, for any games that aren't taking advantage of the additional power/resolution. So basically, you might want to hold on to your Switch 1 OLED for all your pixel art indies, and any games not getting a patch/upgrade. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Oh I don't think there's any doubt from pure IQ perspective its a downgrade from Switch 1 OLED. Even without HDR support at max brightness that screen pops like nothing else.   Maximo Member Oct 25, 2017 11,041 NoSpin said: I didn't see it as a personal attack, I just imagined him reviewing the Game Boy Pocket or the OG DS screes and how disappointed he would have been, whilst we were all busy enjoying video games. Click to expand... Click to shrink... This is a silly comparison since he's not reviewing a screen from 1996 when it first came out, screen technology has exploded since the first iPhone, seems like a needless jab.  Melhadf Member Dec 25, 2017 2,528 My understanding is that 400nits is the minimum for HDR. So it's technically HDR, but usually dismissed by purists as not "real HDR" such as this vid with his HDR10 testing (1000nits standard). So it's a definite improvement over SDR content, but Nintendo then used an LCD instead of OLED so it most likely looks worse than the OLED switch. Feels like Nintendo is using minimum HDR as a crutch to cheap out on the screen and people are saying it's not "TRUE HDR" even though it's completely within spec.  vegtro Member Oct 25, 2017 808 Aleh said: "crap display" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone who has actually seen it in person says it looks really good, HDR isn't everything, however disappointing that is. Click to expand... Click to shrink... When I first booted the Switch 2, I wanted to believe the screen will be ok from the news. Nope, the screen pretty much is pretty bad compared to OLED.   Alvis Saw the truth behind the copied door Member Oct 25, 2017 12,148 EU A bit of a shame, meh NoSpin said: As so often with gaming, I am relieved to have this person to tell me the thing I am enjoying looking at is bad actually. :) Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yes indeed, this dude is set on a mission to personally ruin your experience, and he's now crying in a corner knowing that he failed.   fourfourfun Member Oct 27, 2017 9,149 England Shadow said: But you can't have everything I guess. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I think that's the thing, they went for resolution and VRR as a priority. I'm sure I also read on here a while ago that it also centres around the availability of appropriate screens. OLED only became viable after a certain point.  Pargon Member Oct 27, 2017 14,110 I thought I had appropriately-low expectations, but I was thinking it would be a 600 nit 1800:1 panel. Not 450 nits and 900:1. The only thing "HDR" about it is probably that content will be authored to make use of a wider color gamut. 
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  • How Accurate Are Apps That Show Property Lines?

    © Henrique Ferreira via Unsplash
    Finding property lines can be tricky, especially for individuals who are looking to purchase or list a home for sale. Conventional techniques, including engaging surveyors, are costly and labor-intensive. As an alternate solution, technology provides apps that profess to show property lines. This raises the question: How precise are these digital resources at demarcating boundary lines?

    The emergence of an app that shows property lines has revolutionized how property owners, buyers, and real estate professionals interact with land boundaries. These digital tools leverage advanced mapping technologies to provide visual representations of property boundaries, offering a more accessible alternative to traditional surveying methods while raising important questions about their accuracy and reliability.
    What Are Property Line Apps?
    Apps that display property lines use Geographic Information Systemsand satellite imagery. They offer users a visual display of land boundaries, most commonly available on smartphones or tablets. These apps are meant to help make property borders easier to identify and are a helpful tool for property owners, real estate agents, and buyers.
    These applications typically draw information from public records, county assessor data, and other official sources to create digital representations of property boundaries. Many also incorporate user-friendly features like measurement tools, parcel information displays, and the ability to save or share property data with others.
    How Various Factors Affect Accuracy
    Several factors impact the reliability of property line apps. First, the source of the data is significant. Apps usually have access to government databases and public records that vary in accuracy based on when the data was last refreshed. Second, GPS technology limitations impact accuracy. Although GPS technology is becoming more advanced, apps might still have discrepancies where tree cover or high buildings block signals from satellites and influence tracking accuracy.
    The resolution of satellite imagery also plays a crucial role in determining how precisely property lines can be displayed. Higher-resolution images allow for more detailed and accurate boundary placements, while lower-quality imagery may result in less precise representations. Additionally, the frequency of data updates affects whether the app reflects recent property divisions, consolidations, or boundary adjustments.
    Comparing Traditional Surveying and Apps
    Professional surveyors approach property line determination using high-precision equipment and established methodologies. This traditional approach yields highly accurate results with precise and legally enforceable boundaries. Apps offer more general information on property lines compared to professional surveys. While they are fast and convenient, they provide no substitute for the precision of a professional survey. App-generated boundaries should not be relied upon as definitive indications of legal property lines.
    Traditional surveys involve physical measurements taken directly on the property, considering historical markers, neighboring properties, and legal descriptions. In contrast, apps rely on digital interpretations of existing records, which may not account for all the nuances that a professional surveyor would observe in person.
    Advantages of property line applications

    App-Generated Property Lines
    Property line apps may have their limitations, but they do have valuable uses. They are useful for general assessments where an immediate overview of boundaries may be required. The applications also have user-friendly interfaces that allow a wider audience to use these applications and learn technical skills. Additionally, they are often enhanced with more functionalities, such as calculating areas and providing land parcel information, thus expanding their usefulness for users.
    According to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, these digital tools have significantly increased public access to property information that was previously difficult to obtain without professional assistance. This democratization of property data allows property owners to be more informed about their land assets and helps potential buyers better understand properties of interest before making major decisions.
    Potential Limitations and Risks
    Property line apps may be convenient, but they have clear limitations. Since the data relies heavily on public records, data errors are common. It can be outdated or incomplete, which can lead to misunderstandings or disputes. In addition, these apps are incapable of recognizing legal nuances, such as easements or encroachments, which can significantly impact property rights and boundaries.
    There is also a risk that users might place too much confidence in app-generated boundaries when making important decisions. While these tools can provide helpful guidance, they should not be the sole basis for resolving boundary disputes, building structures near property lines, or making purchase decisions without professional verification.
    Best Practices for Users
    Users should follow a few best practices to make the best and most effective use of a property line app. Cross-referencing results with official records verifies data accuracy, minimizing potential inaccuracies. Moreover, when app data is paired with physical inspections, it provides a fuller picture of property lines. Advice from professionals, including surveyors or real estate agents, can also be beneficial, especially for legal transactions.
    For important matters such as property purchases, boundary disputes, or construction projects near property lines, it’s advisable to use apps as preliminary tools only, following up with professional surveys before making final decisions. Understanding the limitations of these digital tools helps users utilize them appropriately within a broader strategy for property boundary determination.
    Conclusion
    Instead, property line apps provide a convenient and accessible way to determine where your land ends and where your neighbor’s begins. Yet, the precision of these tools is contingent on multiple factors such as data sources and technological limitations. Although useful as an initial step, these tools should not be used, and they should not be used for legal purposes, instead of professional surveys. Users can properly contextualize property boundary information by understanding what these applications can and cannot do.
    Technology continues to shape how we deal with real estate by digitalizing and providing easy access to tools that simplify complex processes. These apps will likely improve accuracy over time and become increasingly integral to property transactions. Until then, users must balance convenience with reliability, ensuring that the information they obtain is helpful and accurate.

    Smart Technologytechnology

    by ArchEyes Team
    Leave a comment
    #how #accurate #are #apps #that
    How Accurate Are Apps That Show Property Lines?
    © Henrique Ferreira via Unsplash Finding property lines can be tricky, especially for individuals who are looking to purchase or list a home for sale. Conventional techniques, including engaging surveyors, are costly and labor-intensive. As an alternate solution, technology provides apps that profess to show property lines. This raises the question: How precise are these digital resources at demarcating boundary lines? The emergence of an app that shows property lines has revolutionized how property owners, buyers, and real estate professionals interact with land boundaries. These digital tools leverage advanced mapping technologies to provide visual representations of property boundaries, offering a more accessible alternative to traditional surveying methods while raising important questions about their accuracy and reliability. What Are Property Line Apps? Apps that display property lines use Geographic Information Systemsand satellite imagery. They offer users a visual display of land boundaries, most commonly available on smartphones or tablets. These apps are meant to help make property borders easier to identify and are a helpful tool for property owners, real estate agents, and buyers. These applications typically draw information from public records, county assessor data, and other official sources to create digital representations of property boundaries. Many also incorporate user-friendly features like measurement tools, parcel information displays, and the ability to save or share property data with others. How Various Factors Affect Accuracy Several factors impact the reliability of property line apps. First, the source of the data is significant. Apps usually have access to government databases and public records that vary in accuracy based on when the data was last refreshed. Second, GPS technology limitations impact accuracy. Although GPS technology is becoming more advanced, apps might still have discrepancies where tree cover or high buildings block signals from satellites and influence tracking accuracy. The resolution of satellite imagery also plays a crucial role in determining how precisely property lines can be displayed. Higher-resolution images allow for more detailed and accurate boundary placements, while lower-quality imagery may result in less precise representations. Additionally, the frequency of data updates affects whether the app reflects recent property divisions, consolidations, or boundary adjustments. Comparing Traditional Surveying and Apps Professional surveyors approach property line determination using high-precision equipment and established methodologies. This traditional approach yields highly accurate results with precise and legally enforceable boundaries. Apps offer more general information on property lines compared to professional surveys. While they are fast and convenient, they provide no substitute for the precision of a professional survey. App-generated boundaries should not be relied upon as definitive indications of legal property lines. Traditional surveys involve physical measurements taken directly on the property, considering historical markers, neighboring properties, and legal descriptions. In contrast, apps rely on digital interpretations of existing records, which may not account for all the nuances that a professional surveyor would observe in person. Advantages of property line applications App-Generated Property Lines Property line apps may have their limitations, but they do have valuable uses. They are useful for general assessments where an immediate overview of boundaries may be required. The applications also have user-friendly interfaces that allow a wider audience to use these applications and learn technical skills. Additionally, they are often enhanced with more functionalities, such as calculating areas and providing land parcel information, thus expanding their usefulness for users. According to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, these digital tools have significantly increased public access to property information that was previously difficult to obtain without professional assistance. This democratization of property data allows property owners to be more informed about their land assets and helps potential buyers better understand properties of interest before making major decisions. Potential Limitations and Risks Property line apps may be convenient, but they have clear limitations. Since the data relies heavily on public records, data errors are common. It can be outdated or incomplete, which can lead to misunderstandings or disputes. In addition, these apps are incapable of recognizing legal nuances, such as easements or encroachments, which can significantly impact property rights and boundaries. There is also a risk that users might place too much confidence in app-generated boundaries when making important decisions. While these tools can provide helpful guidance, they should not be the sole basis for resolving boundary disputes, building structures near property lines, or making purchase decisions without professional verification. Best Practices for Users Users should follow a few best practices to make the best and most effective use of a property line app. Cross-referencing results with official records verifies data accuracy, minimizing potential inaccuracies. Moreover, when app data is paired with physical inspections, it provides a fuller picture of property lines. Advice from professionals, including surveyors or real estate agents, can also be beneficial, especially for legal transactions. For important matters such as property purchases, boundary disputes, or construction projects near property lines, it’s advisable to use apps as preliminary tools only, following up with professional surveys before making final decisions. Understanding the limitations of these digital tools helps users utilize them appropriately within a broader strategy for property boundary determination. Conclusion Instead, property line apps provide a convenient and accessible way to determine where your land ends and where your neighbor’s begins. Yet, the precision of these tools is contingent on multiple factors such as data sources and technological limitations. Although useful as an initial step, these tools should not be used, and they should not be used for legal purposes, instead of professional surveys. Users can properly contextualize property boundary information by understanding what these applications can and cannot do. Technology continues to shape how we deal with real estate by digitalizing and providing easy access to tools that simplify complex processes. These apps will likely improve accuracy over time and become increasingly integral to property transactions. Until then, users must balance convenience with reliability, ensuring that the information they obtain is helpful and accurate. Smart Technologytechnology by ArchEyes Team Leave a comment #how #accurate #are #apps #that
    ARCHEYES.COM
    How Accurate Are Apps That Show Property Lines?
    © Henrique Ferreira via Unsplash Finding property lines can be tricky, especially for individuals who are looking to purchase or list a home for sale. Conventional techniques, including engaging surveyors, are costly and labor-intensive. As an alternate solution, technology provides apps that profess to show property lines. This raises the question: How precise are these digital resources at demarcating boundary lines? The emergence of an app that shows property lines has revolutionized how property owners, buyers, and real estate professionals interact with land boundaries. These digital tools leverage advanced mapping technologies to provide visual representations of property boundaries, offering a more accessible alternative to traditional surveying methods while raising important questions about their accuracy and reliability. What Are Property Line Apps? Apps that display property lines use Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and satellite imagery. They offer users a visual display of land boundaries, most commonly available on smartphones or tablets. These apps are meant to help make property borders easier to identify and are a helpful tool for property owners, real estate agents, and buyers. These applications typically draw information from public records, county assessor data, and other official sources to create digital representations of property boundaries. Many also incorporate user-friendly features like measurement tools, parcel information displays, and the ability to save or share property data with others. How Various Factors Affect Accuracy Several factors impact the reliability of property line apps. First, the source of the data is significant. Apps usually have access to government databases and public records that vary in accuracy based on when the data was last refreshed. Second, GPS technology limitations impact accuracy. Although GPS technology is becoming more advanced, apps might still have discrepancies where tree cover or high buildings block signals from satellites and influence tracking accuracy. The resolution of satellite imagery also plays a crucial role in determining how precisely property lines can be displayed. Higher-resolution images allow for more detailed and accurate boundary placements, while lower-quality imagery may result in less precise representations. Additionally, the frequency of data updates affects whether the app reflects recent property divisions, consolidations, or boundary adjustments. Comparing Traditional Surveying and Apps Professional surveyors approach property line determination using high-precision equipment and established methodologies. This traditional approach yields highly accurate results with precise and legally enforceable boundaries. Apps offer more general information on property lines compared to professional surveys. While they are fast and convenient, they provide no substitute for the precision of a professional survey. App-generated boundaries should not be relied upon as definitive indications of legal property lines. Traditional surveys involve physical measurements taken directly on the property, considering historical markers, neighboring properties, and legal descriptions. In contrast, apps rely on digital interpretations of existing records, which may not account for all the nuances that a professional surveyor would observe in person. Advantages of property line applications App-Generated Property Lines Property line apps may have their limitations, but they do have valuable uses. They are useful for general assessments where an immediate overview of boundaries may be required. The applications also have user-friendly interfaces that allow a wider audience to use these applications and learn technical skills. Additionally, they are often enhanced with more functionalities, such as calculating areas and providing land parcel information, thus expanding their usefulness for users. According to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, these digital tools have significantly increased public access to property information that was previously difficult to obtain without professional assistance. This democratization of property data allows property owners to be more informed about their land assets and helps potential buyers better understand properties of interest before making major decisions. Potential Limitations and Risks Property line apps may be convenient, but they have clear limitations. Since the data relies heavily on public records, data errors are common. It can be outdated or incomplete, which can lead to misunderstandings or disputes. In addition, these apps are incapable of recognizing legal nuances, such as easements or encroachments, which can significantly impact property rights and boundaries. There is also a risk that users might place too much confidence in app-generated boundaries when making important decisions. While these tools can provide helpful guidance, they should not be the sole basis for resolving boundary disputes, building structures near property lines, or making purchase decisions without professional verification. Best Practices for Users Users should follow a few best practices to make the best and most effective use of a property line app. Cross-referencing results with official records verifies data accuracy, minimizing potential inaccuracies. Moreover, when app data is paired with physical inspections, it provides a fuller picture of property lines. Advice from professionals, including surveyors or real estate agents, can also be beneficial, especially for legal transactions. For important matters such as property purchases, boundary disputes, or construction projects near property lines, it’s advisable to use apps as preliminary tools only, following up with professional surveys before making final decisions. Understanding the limitations of these digital tools helps users utilize them appropriately within a broader strategy for property boundary determination. Conclusion Instead, property line apps provide a convenient and accessible way to determine where your land ends and where your neighbor’s begins. Yet, the precision of these tools is contingent on multiple factors such as data sources and technological limitations. Although useful as an initial step, these tools should not be used, and they should not be used for legal purposes, instead of professional surveys. Users can properly contextualize property boundary information by understanding what these applications can and cannot do. Technology continues to shape how we deal with real estate by digitalizing and providing easy access to tools that simplify complex processes. These apps will likely improve accuracy over time and become increasingly integral to property transactions. Until then, users must balance convenience with reliability, ensuring that the information they obtain is helpful and accurate. Smart Technologytechnology by ArchEyes Team Leave a comment
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  • Endangered classic Mac plastic color returns as 3D-printer filament

    The color of nostalgia

    Endangered classic Mac plastic color returns as 3D-printer filament

    Mac fan paid to color-match iconic Apple beige-gray "Platinum" plastic for everyone.

    Benj Edwards



    Jun 4, 2025 6:13 pm

    |

    3

    The Mac SE, released in 1987, was one of many classic Macs to use the "Platinum" color scheme.

    Credit:

    Apple / Polar Filament

    The Mac SE, released in 1987, was one of many classic Macs to use the "Platinum" color scheme.

    Credit:

    Apple / Polar Filament

    Story text

    Size

    Small
    Standard
    Large

    Width
    *

    Standard
    Wide

    Links

    Standard
    Orange

    * Subscribers only
      Learn more

    On Tuesday, classic computer collector Joe Strosnider announced the availability of a new 3D-printer filament that replicates the iconic "Platinum" color scheme used in classic Macintosh computers from the late 1980s through the 1990s. The PLA filamentallows hobbyists to 3D-print nostalgic novelties, replacement parts, and accessories that match the original color of vintage Apple computers.
    Hobbyists commonly feed this type of filament into commercial desktop 3D printers, which heat the plastic and extrude it in a computer-controlled way to fabricate new plastic parts.
    The Platinum color, which Apple used in its desktop and portable computer lines starting with the Apple IIgs in 1986, has become synonymous with a distinctive era of classic Macintosh aesthetic. Over time, original Macintosh plastics have become brittle and discolored with age, so matching the "original" color can be a somewhat challenging and subjective experience.

    A close-up of "Retro Platinum" PLA filament by Polar Filament.

    Credit:

    Polar Filament

    Strosnider, who runs a website about his extensive vintage computer collection in Ohio, worked for years to color-match the distinctive beige-gray hue of the Macintosh Platinum scheme, resulting in a spool of hobby-ready plastic by Polar Filament and priced at per kilogram.
    According to a forum post, Strosnider paid approximately to develop the color and purchase an initial 25-kilogram supply of the filament. Rather than keeping the formulation proprietary, he arranged for Polar Filament to make the color publicly available.
    "I paid them a fee to color match the speaker box from inside my Mac Color Classic," Strosnider wrote in a Tinkerdifferent forum post on Tuesday. "In exchange, I asked them to release the color to the public so anyone can use it."

    A spool of "Retro Platinum" PLA filament by Polar Filament.

    Credit:

    Polar Filament

    The development addresses a gap in the vintage computing community, where enthusiasts sometimes struggle to find appropriately colored materials for restoration projects and new accessories. The new filament is an attempt to replace previous options that were either expensive, required international shipping, or had consistency issues that Strosnider described as "chalky."
    The 1.75 mm filament works with standard 3D printers and is compatible with automated material systems used in some newer printer models. On Bluesky, Strosnider encouraged buyers to "order plenty, and let them know you want them to print it forever" to ensure continued production of the specialty color.
    Extruded nostalgia
    The timing of the filament's release coincides with growing interest in 3D-printed cases and accessories for vintage computer hardware. One example is the SE Mini desktop case, a project by "GutBomb" that transforms Macintosh SE and SE/30 logic boards into compact desktop computers that can connect to modern displays. The case, designed to be 3D-printed in multiple pieces and assembled, represents the type of project that benefits from color-accurate filament.

    A 3D-printed "SE Mini" desktop case that allows using a vintage compact Mac board in a new enclosure.

    Credit:

    Joe Strosnider

    The SE Mini case requires approximately half a spool of filament and takes a couple of days to print on consumer 3D printers. Users can outfit the case with modern components, such as Pico PSUs and BlueSCSI storage devices, while maintaining the classic Macintosh appearance.
    Why create new "retro" devices? Because it's fun, and it's a great way to merge technology's past with the benefits of recent tech developments. Projects like the Platinum PLA filament, the SE Mini case, and the dedication of hobbyists like Strosnider ensure that appreciation for Apple's computers of yore will continue for decades.

    Benj Edwards
    Senior AI Reporter

    Benj Edwards
    Senior AI Reporter

    Benj Edwards is Ars Technica's Senior AI Reporter and founder of the site's dedicated AI beat in 2022. He's also a tech historian with almost two decades of experience. In his free time, he writes and records music, collects vintage computers, and enjoys nature. He lives in Raleigh, NC.

    3 Comments
    #endangered #classic #mac #plastic #color
    Endangered classic Mac plastic color returns as 3D-printer filament
    The color of nostalgia Endangered classic Mac plastic color returns as 3D-printer filament Mac fan paid to color-match iconic Apple beige-gray "Platinum" plastic for everyone. Benj Edwards – Jun 4, 2025 6:13 pm | 3 The Mac SE, released in 1987, was one of many classic Macs to use the "Platinum" color scheme. Credit: Apple / Polar Filament The Mac SE, released in 1987, was one of many classic Macs to use the "Platinum" color scheme. Credit: Apple / Polar Filament Story text Size Small Standard Large Width * Standard Wide Links Standard Orange * Subscribers only   Learn more On Tuesday, classic computer collector Joe Strosnider announced the availability of a new 3D-printer filament that replicates the iconic "Platinum" color scheme used in classic Macintosh computers from the late 1980s through the 1990s. The PLA filamentallows hobbyists to 3D-print nostalgic novelties, replacement parts, and accessories that match the original color of vintage Apple computers. Hobbyists commonly feed this type of filament into commercial desktop 3D printers, which heat the plastic and extrude it in a computer-controlled way to fabricate new plastic parts. The Platinum color, which Apple used in its desktop and portable computer lines starting with the Apple IIgs in 1986, has become synonymous with a distinctive era of classic Macintosh aesthetic. Over time, original Macintosh plastics have become brittle and discolored with age, so matching the "original" color can be a somewhat challenging and subjective experience. A close-up of "Retro Platinum" PLA filament by Polar Filament. Credit: Polar Filament Strosnider, who runs a website about his extensive vintage computer collection in Ohio, worked for years to color-match the distinctive beige-gray hue of the Macintosh Platinum scheme, resulting in a spool of hobby-ready plastic by Polar Filament and priced at per kilogram. According to a forum post, Strosnider paid approximately to develop the color and purchase an initial 25-kilogram supply of the filament. Rather than keeping the formulation proprietary, he arranged for Polar Filament to make the color publicly available. "I paid them a fee to color match the speaker box from inside my Mac Color Classic," Strosnider wrote in a Tinkerdifferent forum post on Tuesday. "In exchange, I asked them to release the color to the public so anyone can use it." A spool of "Retro Platinum" PLA filament by Polar Filament. Credit: Polar Filament The development addresses a gap in the vintage computing community, where enthusiasts sometimes struggle to find appropriately colored materials for restoration projects and new accessories. The new filament is an attempt to replace previous options that were either expensive, required international shipping, or had consistency issues that Strosnider described as "chalky." The 1.75 mm filament works with standard 3D printers and is compatible with automated material systems used in some newer printer models. On Bluesky, Strosnider encouraged buyers to "order plenty, and let them know you want them to print it forever" to ensure continued production of the specialty color. Extruded nostalgia The timing of the filament's release coincides with growing interest in 3D-printed cases and accessories for vintage computer hardware. One example is the SE Mini desktop case, a project by "GutBomb" that transforms Macintosh SE and SE/30 logic boards into compact desktop computers that can connect to modern displays. The case, designed to be 3D-printed in multiple pieces and assembled, represents the type of project that benefits from color-accurate filament. A 3D-printed "SE Mini" desktop case that allows using a vintage compact Mac board in a new enclosure. Credit: Joe Strosnider The SE Mini case requires approximately half a spool of filament and takes a couple of days to print on consumer 3D printers. Users can outfit the case with modern components, such as Pico PSUs and BlueSCSI storage devices, while maintaining the classic Macintosh appearance. Why create new "retro" devices? Because it's fun, and it's a great way to merge technology's past with the benefits of recent tech developments. Projects like the Platinum PLA filament, the SE Mini case, and the dedication of hobbyists like Strosnider ensure that appreciation for Apple's computers of yore will continue for decades. Benj Edwards Senior AI Reporter Benj Edwards Senior AI Reporter Benj Edwards is Ars Technica's Senior AI Reporter and founder of the site's dedicated AI beat in 2022. He's also a tech historian with almost two decades of experience. In his free time, he writes and records music, collects vintage computers, and enjoys nature. He lives in Raleigh, NC. 3 Comments #endangered #classic #mac #plastic #color
    ARSTECHNICA.COM
    Endangered classic Mac plastic color returns as 3D-printer filament
    The color of nostalgia Endangered classic Mac plastic color returns as 3D-printer filament Mac fan paid $900 to color-match iconic Apple beige-gray "Platinum" plastic for everyone. Benj Edwards – Jun 4, 2025 6:13 pm | 3 The Mac SE, released in 1987, was one of many classic Macs to use the "Platinum" color scheme. Credit: Apple / Polar Filament The Mac SE, released in 1987, was one of many classic Macs to use the "Platinum" color scheme. Credit: Apple / Polar Filament Story text Size Small Standard Large Width * Standard Wide Links Standard Orange * Subscribers only   Learn more On Tuesday, classic computer collector Joe Strosnider announced the availability of a new 3D-printer filament that replicates the iconic "Platinum" color scheme used in classic Macintosh computers from the late 1980s through the 1990s. The PLA filament (PLA is short for polylactic acid) allows hobbyists to 3D-print nostalgic novelties, replacement parts, and accessories that match the original color of vintage Apple computers. Hobbyists commonly feed this type of filament into commercial desktop 3D printers, which heat the plastic and extrude it in a computer-controlled way to fabricate new plastic parts. The Platinum color, which Apple used in its desktop and portable computer lines starting with the Apple IIgs in 1986, has become synonymous with a distinctive era of classic Macintosh aesthetic. Over time, original Macintosh plastics have become brittle and discolored with age, so matching the "original" color can be a somewhat challenging and subjective experience. A close-up of "Retro Platinum" PLA filament by Polar Filament. Credit: Polar Filament Strosnider, who runs a website about his extensive vintage computer collection in Ohio, worked for years to color-match the distinctive beige-gray hue of the Macintosh Platinum scheme, resulting in a spool of hobby-ready plastic by Polar Filament and priced at $21.99 per kilogram. According to a forum post, Strosnider paid approximately $900 to develop the color and purchase an initial 25-kilogram supply of the filament. Rather than keeping the formulation proprietary, he arranged for Polar Filament to make the color publicly available. "I paid them a fee to color match the speaker box from inside my Mac Color Classic," Strosnider wrote in a Tinkerdifferent forum post on Tuesday. "In exchange, I asked them to release the color to the public so anyone can use it." A spool of "Retro Platinum" PLA filament by Polar Filament. Credit: Polar Filament The development addresses a gap in the vintage computing community, where enthusiasts sometimes struggle to find appropriately colored materials for restoration projects and new accessories. The new filament is an attempt to replace previous options that were either expensive, required international shipping, or had consistency issues that Strosnider described as "chalky." The 1.75 mm filament works with standard 3D printers and is compatible with automated material systems used in some newer printer models. On Bluesky, Strosnider encouraged buyers to "order plenty, and let them know you want them to print it forever" to ensure continued production of the specialty color. Extruded nostalgia The timing of the filament's release coincides with growing interest in 3D-printed cases and accessories for vintage computer hardware. One example is the SE Mini desktop case, a project by "GutBomb" that transforms Macintosh SE and SE/30 logic boards into compact desktop computers that can connect to modern displays. The case, designed to be 3D-printed in multiple pieces and assembled, represents the type of project that benefits from color-accurate filament. A 3D-printed "SE Mini" desktop case that allows using a vintage compact Mac board in a new enclosure. Credit: Joe Strosnider The SE Mini case requires approximately half a spool of filament and takes a couple of days to print on consumer 3D printers. Users can outfit the case with modern components, such as Pico PSUs and BlueSCSI storage devices, while maintaining the classic Macintosh appearance. Why create new "retro" devices? Because it's fun, and it's a great way to merge technology's past with the benefits of recent tech developments. Projects like the Platinum PLA filament, the SE Mini case, and the dedication of hobbyists like Strosnider ensure that appreciation for Apple's computers of yore will continue for decades. Benj Edwards Senior AI Reporter Benj Edwards Senior AI Reporter Benj Edwards is Ars Technica's Senior AI Reporter and founder of the site's dedicated AI beat in 2022. He's also a tech historian with almost two decades of experience. In his free time, he writes and records music, collects vintage computers, and enjoys nature. He lives in Raleigh, NC. 3 Comments
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  • Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy

    Home Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy

    News

    Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy

    7 min read

    Published: June 4, 2025

    Key Takeaways

    Meta and Yandex have been found guilty of secretly listening to localhost ports and using them to transfer sensitive data from Android devices.
    The corporations use Meta Pixel and Yandex Metrica scripts to transfer cookies from browsers to local apps. Using incognito mode or a VPN can’t fully protect users against it.
    A Meta spokesperson has called this a ‘miscommunication,’ which seems to be an attempt to underplay the situation.

    Wake up, Android folks! A new privacy scandal has hit your area of town. According to a new report led by Radboud University, Meta and Yandex have been listening to localhost ports to link your web browsing data with your identity and collect personal information without your consent.
    The companies use Meta Pixel and the Yandex Metrica scripts, which are embedded on 5.8 million and 3 million websites, respectively, to connect with their native apps on Android devices through localhost sockets.
    This creates a communication path between the cookies on your website and the local apps, establishing a channel for transferring personal information from your device.
    Also, you are mistaken if you think using your browser’s incognito mode or a VPN can protect you. Zuckerberg’s latest method of data harvesting can’t be overcome by tweaking any privacy or cookie settings or by using a VPN or incognito mode.
    How Does It Work?
    Here’s the method used by Meta to spy on Android devices:

    As many as 22% of the top 1 million websites contain Meta Pixel – a tracking code that helps website owners measure ad performance and track user behaviour.
    When Meta Pixel loads, it creates a special cookie called _fbp, which is supposed to be a first-party cookie. This means no other third party, including Meta apps themselves, should have access to this cookie. The _fbp cookie identifies your browser whenever you visit a website, meaning it can identify which person is accessing which websites.
    However, Meta, being Meta, went and found a loophole around this. Now, whenever you run Facebook or Instagram on your Android device, they can open up listening ports, specifically a TCP portand a UDP port, on your phone in the background. 
    Whenever you load a website on your browser, the Meta Pixel uses WebRTC with SDP Munging, which essentially hides the _fbp cookie value inside the SDP message before being transmitted to your phone’s localhost. 
    Since Facebook and Instagram are already listening to this port, it receives the _fbp cookie value and can easily tie your identity to the website you’re visiting. Remember, Facebook and Instagram already have your identification details since you’re always logged in on these platforms.

    The report also says that Meta can link all _fbp received from various websites to your ID. Simply put, Meta knows which person is viewing what set of websites.
    Yandex also uses a similar method to harvest your personal data.

    Whenever you open a Yandex app, such as Yandex Maps, Yandex Browser, Yandex Search, or Navigator, it opens up ports like 29009, 30102, 29010, and 30103 on your phone. 
    When you visit a website that contains the Yandex Metrica Script, Yandex’s version of Meta Pixel, the script sends requests to Yandex servers containing obfuscated parameters. 
    These parameters are then sent to the local host via HTTP and HTTPS, which contains the IP address 127.0.0.1, or the yandexmetrica.com domain, which secretly points to 127.0.0.1.
    Now, the Yandex Metrica SDK in the Yandex apps receives these parameters and sends device identifiers, such as an Android Advertising ID, UUIDs, or device fingerprints. This entire message is encrypted to hide what it contains.
    The Yandex Metrica Script receives this info and sends it back to the Yandex servers. Just like Meta, Yandex can also tie your website activity to the device information shared by the SDK.

    Meta’s Infamous History with Privacy Norms
    This is not something new or unthinkable that Meta has done. The Mark Zuckerberg-led social media giant has a history of such privacy violations. 
    For instance, in 2024, the company was accused of collecting biometric data from Texas users without their express consent. The company settled the lawsuit by paying B. 
    Another of the most famous lawsuits was the Cambridge Analytica scandal in 2018, where a political consulting firm accessed private data of 87 million Facebook users without consent. The FTC fined Meta B for privacy violations along with a 100M settlement with the US Securities and Exchange Commission. 
    Meta Pixel has also come under scrutiny before, when it was accused of collecting sensitive health information from hospital websites. In another case dating back to 2012, Meta was accused of tracking users even after they logged out from their Facebook accounts. In this case, Meta paid M and promised to delete the collected data. 
    In 2024, South Korea also fined Meta M for inappropriately collecting personal data, such as sexual orientation and political beliefs, of 980K users.
    In September 2024, Meta was fined M by the Irish Data Protection Commission for inadvertently storing user passwords in plain text in such a way that employees could search for them. The passwords were not encrypted and were essentially leaked internally.
    So, the latest scandal isn’t entirely out of character for Meta. It has been finding ways to collect your data ever since its incorporation, and it seems like it will continue to do so, regardless of the regulations and safeguards in place.
    That said, Meta’s recent tracking method is insanely dangerous because there’s no safeguard around it. Even if you visit websites in incognito mode or use a VPN, Meta Pixel can still track your activities. 
    The past lawsuits also show a very identifiable pattern: Meta doesn’t fight a lawsuit until the end to try to win it. It either accepts the fine or settles the lawsuit with monetary compensation. This essentially goes to show that it passively accepts and even ‘owns’ the illegitimate tracking methods it has been using for decades. It’s quite possible that the top management views these fines and penalties as a cost of collecting data.
    Meta’s Timid Response
    Meta’s response claims that there’s some ‘miscommunication’ regarding Google policies. However, the method used in the aforementioned tracking scandal isn’t something that can simply happen due to ‘faulty design’ or miscommunication. 

    We are in discussions with Google to address a potential miscommunication regarding the application of their policies – Meta Spokesperson

    This kind of unethical tracking method has to be deliberately designed by engineers for it to work perfectly on such a large scale. While Meta is still trying to underplay the situation, it has paused the ‘feature’as of now. The report also claims that as of June 3, Facebook and Instagram are not actively listening to the new ports.
    Here’s what will possibly happen next:

    A lawsuit may be filed based on the report.
    An investigating committee might be formed to question the matter.
    The company will come up with lame excuses, such as misinterpretation or miscommunication of policy guidelines.
    Meta will eventually settle the lawsuit or bear the fine with pride, like it has always done. 

    The regulatory authorities are apparently chasing a rat that finds new holes to hide every day. Companies like Meta and Yandex seem to be one step ahead of these regulations and have mastered the art of finding loopholes.
    More than legislative technicalities, it’s the moral ethics of the company that become clear with incidents like this. The intent of these regulations is to protect personal information, and the fact that Meta and Yandex blatantly circumvent these regulations in their spirit shows the absolutely horrific state of capitalism these corporations are in.

    Krishi is a seasoned tech journalist with over four years of experience writing about PC hardware, consumer technology, and artificial intelligence.  Clarity and accessibility are at the core of Krishi’s writing style.
    He believes technology writing should empower readers—not confuse them—and he’s committed to ensuring his content is always easy to understand without sacrificing accuracy or depth.
    Over the years, Krishi has contributed to some of the most reputable names in the industry, including Techopedia, TechRadar, and Tom’s Guide. A man of many talents, Krishi has also proven his mettle as a crypto writer, tackling complex topics with both ease and zeal. His work spans various formats—from in-depth explainers and news coverage to feature pieces and buying guides. 
    Behind the scenes, Krishi operates from a dual-monitor setupthat’s always buzzing with news feeds, technical documentation, and research notes, as well as the occasional gaming sessions that keep him fresh. 
    Krishi thrives on staying current, always ready to dive into the latest announcements, industry shifts, and their far-reaching impacts.  When he's not deep into research on the latest PC hardware news, Krishi would love to chat with you about day trading and the financial markets—oh! And cricket, as well.

    View all articles by Krishi Chowdhary

    Our editorial process

    The Tech Report editorial policy is centered on providing helpful, accurate content that offers real value to our readers. We only work with experienced writers who have specific knowledge in the topics they cover, including latest developments in technology, online privacy, cryptocurrencies, software, and more. Our editorial policy ensures that each topic is researched and curated by our in-house editors. We maintain rigorous journalistic standards, and every article is 100% written by real authors.

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    #meta #yandex #spying #android #users
    Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy
    Home Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy News Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy 7 min read Published: June 4, 2025 Key Takeaways Meta and Yandex have been found guilty of secretly listening to localhost ports and using them to transfer sensitive data from Android devices. The corporations use Meta Pixel and Yandex Metrica scripts to transfer cookies from browsers to local apps. Using incognito mode or a VPN can’t fully protect users against it. A Meta spokesperson has called this a ‘miscommunication,’ which seems to be an attempt to underplay the situation. Wake up, Android folks! A new privacy scandal has hit your area of town. According to a new report led by Radboud University, Meta and Yandex have been listening to localhost ports to link your web browsing data with your identity and collect personal information without your consent. The companies use Meta Pixel and the Yandex Metrica scripts, which are embedded on 5.8 million and 3 million websites, respectively, to connect with their native apps on Android devices through localhost sockets. This creates a communication path between the cookies on your website and the local apps, establishing a channel for transferring personal information from your device. Also, you are mistaken if you think using your browser’s incognito mode or a VPN can protect you. Zuckerberg’s latest method of data harvesting can’t be overcome by tweaking any privacy or cookie settings or by using a VPN or incognito mode. How Does It Work? Here’s the method used by Meta to spy on Android devices: As many as 22% of the top 1 million websites contain Meta Pixel – a tracking code that helps website owners measure ad performance and track user behaviour. When Meta Pixel loads, it creates a special cookie called _fbp, which is supposed to be a first-party cookie. This means no other third party, including Meta apps themselves, should have access to this cookie. The _fbp cookie identifies your browser whenever you visit a website, meaning it can identify which person is accessing which websites. However, Meta, being Meta, went and found a loophole around this. Now, whenever you run Facebook or Instagram on your Android device, they can open up listening ports, specifically a TCP portand a UDP port, on your phone in the background.  Whenever you load a website on your browser, the Meta Pixel uses WebRTC with SDP Munging, which essentially hides the _fbp cookie value inside the SDP message before being transmitted to your phone’s localhost.  Since Facebook and Instagram are already listening to this port, it receives the _fbp cookie value and can easily tie your identity to the website you’re visiting. Remember, Facebook and Instagram already have your identification details since you’re always logged in on these platforms. The report also says that Meta can link all _fbp received from various websites to your ID. Simply put, Meta knows which person is viewing what set of websites. Yandex also uses a similar method to harvest your personal data. Whenever you open a Yandex app, such as Yandex Maps, Yandex Browser, Yandex Search, or Navigator, it opens up ports like 29009, 30102, 29010, and 30103 on your phone.  When you visit a website that contains the Yandex Metrica Script, Yandex’s version of Meta Pixel, the script sends requests to Yandex servers containing obfuscated parameters.  These parameters are then sent to the local host via HTTP and HTTPS, which contains the IP address 127.0.0.1, or the yandexmetrica.com domain, which secretly points to 127.0.0.1. Now, the Yandex Metrica SDK in the Yandex apps receives these parameters and sends device identifiers, such as an Android Advertising ID, UUIDs, or device fingerprints. This entire message is encrypted to hide what it contains. The Yandex Metrica Script receives this info and sends it back to the Yandex servers. Just like Meta, Yandex can also tie your website activity to the device information shared by the SDK. Meta’s Infamous History with Privacy Norms This is not something new or unthinkable that Meta has done. The Mark Zuckerberg-led social media giant has a history of such privacy violations.  For instance, in 2024, the company was accused of collecting biometric data from Texas users without their express consent. The company settled the lawsuit by paying B.  Another of the most famous lawsuits was the Cambridge Analytica scandal in 2018, where a political consulting firm accessed private data of 87 million Facebook users without consent. The FTC fined Meta B for privacy violations along with a 100M settlement with the US Securities and Exchange Commission.  Meta Pixel has also come under scrutiny before, when it was accused of collecting sensitive health information from hospital websites. In another case dating back to 2012, Meta was accused of tracking users even after they logged out from their Facebook accounts. In this case, Meta paid M and promised to delete the collected data.  In 2024, South Korea also fined Meta M for inappropriately collecting personal data, such as sexual orientation and political beliefs, of 980K users. In September 2024, Meta was fined M by the Irish Data Protection Commission for inadvertently storing user passwords in plain text in such a way that employees could search for them. The passwords were not encrypted and were essentially leaked internally. So, the latest scandal isn’t entirely out of character for Meta. It has been finding ways to collect your data ever since its incorporation, and it seems like it will continue to do so, regardless of the regulations and safeguards in place. That said, Meta’s recent tracking method is insanely dangerous because there’s no safeguard around it. Even if you visit websites in incognito mode or use a VPN, Meta Pixel can still track your activities.  The past lawsuits also show a very identifiable pattern: Meta doesn’t fight a lawsuit until the end to try to win it. It either accepts the fine or settles the lawsuit with monetary compensation. This essentially goes to show that it passively accepts and even ‘owns’ the illegitimate tracking methods it has been using for decades. It’s quite possible that the top management views these fines and penalties as a cost of collecting data. Meta’s Timid Response Meta’s response claims that there’s some ‘miscommunication’ regarding Google policies. However, the method used in the aforementioned tracking scandal isn’t something that can simply happen due to ‘faulty design’ or miscommunication.  We are in discussions with Google to address a potential miscommunication regarding the application of their policies – Meta Spokesperson This kind of unethical tracking method has to be deliberately designed by engineers for it to work perfectly on such a large scale. While Meta is still trying to underplay the situation, it has paused the ‘feature’as of now. The report also claims that as of June 3, Facebook and Instagram are not actively listening to the new ports. Here’s what will possibly happen next: A lawsuit may be filed based on the report. An investigating committee might be formed to question the matter. The company will come up with lame excuses, such as misinterpretation or miscommunication of policy guidelines. Meta will eventually settle the lawsuit or bear the fine with pride, like it has always done.  The regulatory authorities are apparently chasing a rat that finds new holes to hide every day. Companies like Meta and Yandex seem to be one step ahead of these regulations and have mastered the art of finding loopholes. More than legislative technicalities, it’s the moral ethics of the company that become clear with incidents like this. The intent of these regulations is to protect personal information, and the fact that Meta and Yandex blatantly circumvent these regulations in their spirit shows the absolutely horrific state of capitalism these corporations are in. Krishi is a seasoned tech journalist with over four years of experience writing about PC hardware, consumer technology, and artificial intelligence.  Clarity and accessibility are at the core of Krishi’s writing style. He believes technology writing should empower readers—not confuse them—and he’s committed to ensuring his content is always easy to understand without sacrificing accuracy or depth. Over the years, Krishi has contributed to some of the most reputable names in the industry, including Techopedia, TechRadar, and Tom’s Guide. A man of many talents, Krishi has also proven his mettle as a crypto writer, tackling complex topics with both ease and zeal. His work spans various formats—from in-depth explainers and news coverage to feature pieces and buying guides.  Behind the scenes, Krishi operates from a dual-monitor setupthat’s always buzzing with news feeds, technical documentation, and research notes, as well as the occasional gaming sessions that keep him fresh.  Krishi thrives on staying current, always ready to dive into the latest announcements, industry shifts, and their far-reaching impacts.  When he's not deep into research on the latest PC hardware news, Krishi would love to chat with you about day trading and the financial markets—oh! And cricket, as well. View all articles by Krishi Chowdhary Our editorial process The Tech Report editorial policy is centered on providing helpful, accurate content that offers real value to our readers. We only work with experienced writers who have specific knowledge in the topics they cover, including latest developments in technology, online privacy, cryptocurrencies, software, and more. Our editorial policy ensures that each topic is researched and curated by our in-house editors. We maintain rigorous journalistic standards, and every article is 100% written by real authors. More from News View all View all #meta #yandex #spying #android #users
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    Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy
    Home Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy News Meta and Yandex Spying on Android Users Through Localhost Ports: The Dying State of Online Privacy 7 min read Published: June 4, 2025 Key Takeaways Meta and Yandex have been found guilty of secretly listening to localhost ports and using them to transfer sensitive data from Android devices. The corporations use Meta Pixel and Yandex Metrica scripts to transfer cookies from browsers to local apps. Using incognito mode or a VPN can’t fully protect users against it. A Meta spokesperson has called this a ‘miscommunication,’ which seems to be an attempt to underplay the situation. Wake up, Android folks! A new privacy scandal has hit your area of town. According to a new report led by Radboud University, Meta and Yandex have been listening to localhost ports to link your web browsing data with your identity and collect personal information without your consent. The companies use Meta Pixel and the Yandex Metrica scripts, which are embedded on 5.8 million and 3 million websites, respectively, to connect with their native apps on Android devices through localhost sockets. This creates a communication path between the cookies on your website and the local apps, establishing a channel for transferring personal information from your device. Also, you are mistaken if you think using your browser’s incognito mode or a VPN can protect you. Zuckerberg’s latest method of data harvesting can’t be overcome by tweaking any privacy or cookie settings or by using a VPN or incognito mode. How Does It Work? Here’s the method used by Meta to spy on Android devices: As many as 22% of the top 1 million websites contain Meta Pixel – a tracking code that helps website owners measure ad performance and track user behaviour. When Meta Pixel loads, it creates a special cookie called _fbp, which is supposed to be a first-party cookie. This means no other third party, including Meta apps themselves, should have access to this cookie. The _fbp cookie identifies your browser whenever you visit a website, meaning it can identify which person is accessing which websites. However, Meta, being Meta, went and found a loophole around this. Now, whenever you run Facebook or Instagram on your Android device, they can open up listening ports, specifically a TCP port (12387 or 12388) and a UDP port (the first unoccupied port in 12580-12585), on your phone in the background.  Whenever you load a website on your browser, the Meta Pixel uses WebRTC with SDP Munging, which essentially hides the _fbp cookie value inside the SDP message before being transmitted to your phone’s localhost.  Since Facebook and Instagram are already listening to this port, it receives the _fbp cookie value and can easily tie your identity to the website you’re visiting. Remember, Facebook and Instagram already have your identification details since you’re always logged in on these platforms. The report also says that Meta can link all _fbp received from various websites to your ID. Simply put, Meta knows which person is viewing what set of websites. Yandex also uses a similar method to harvest your personal data. Whenever you open a Yandex app, such as Yandex Maps, Yandex Browser, Yandex Search, or Navigator, it opens up ports like 29009, 30102, 29010, and 30103 on your phone.  When you visit a website that contains the Yandex Metrica Script, Yandex’s version of Meta Pixel, the script sends requests to Yandex servers containing obfuscated parameters.  These parameters are then sent to the local host via HTTP and HTTPS, which contains the IP address 127.0.0.1, or the yandexmetrica.com domain, which secretly points to 127.0.0.1. Now, the Yandex Metrica SDK in the Yandex apps receives these parameters and sends device identifiers, such as an Android Advertising ID, UUIDs, or device fingerprints. This entire message is encrypted to hide what it contains. The Yandex Metrica Script receives this info and sends it back to the Yandex servers. Just like Meta, Yandex can also tie your website activity to the device information shared by the SDK. Meta’s Infamous History with Privacy Norms This is not something new or unthinkable that Meta has done. The Mark Zuckerberg-led social media giant has a history of such privacy violations.  For instance, in 2024, the company was accused of collecting biometric data from Texas users without their express consent. The company settled the lawsuit by paying $1.4B.  Another of the most famous lawsuits was the Cambridge Analytica scandal in 2018, where a political consulting firm accessed private data of 87 million Facebook users without consent. The FTC fined Meta $5B for privacy violations along with a 100M settlement with the US Securities and Exchange Commission.  Meta Pixel has also come under scrutiny before, when it was accused of collecting sensitive health information from hospital websites. In another case dating back to 2012, Meta was accused of tracking users even after they logged out from their Facebook accounts. In this case, Meta paid $90M and promised to delete the collected data.  In 2024, South Korea also fined Meta $15M for inappropriately collecting personal data, such as sexual orientation and political beliefs, of 980K users. In September 2024, Meta was fined $101.6M by the Irish Data Protection Commission for inadvertently storing user passwords in plain text in such a way that employees could search for them. The passwords were not encrypted and were essentially leaked internally. So, the latest scandal isn’t entirely out of character for Meta. It has been finding ways to collect your data ever since its incorporation, and it seems like it will continue to do so, regardless of the regulations and safeguards in place. That said, Meta’s recent tracking method is insanely dangerous because there’s no safeguard around it. Even if you visit websites in incognito mode or use a VPN, Meta Pixel can still track your activities.  The past lawsuits also show a very identifiable pattern: Meta doesn’t fight a lawsuit until the end to try to win it. It either accepts the fine or settles the lawsuit with monetary compensation. This essentially goes to show that it passively accepts and even ‘owns’ the illegitimate tracking methods it has been using for decades. It’s quite possible that the top management views these fines and penalties as a cost of collecting data. Meta’s Timid Response Meta’s response claims that there’s some ‘miscommunication’ regarding Google policies. However, the method used in the aforementioned tracking scandal isn’t something that can simply happen due to ‘faulty design’ or miscommunication.  We are in discussions with Google to address a potential miscommunication regarding the application of their policies – Meta Spokesperson This kind of unethical tracking method has to be deliberately designed by engineers for it to work perfectly on such a large scale. While Meta is still trying to underplay the situation, it has paused the ‘feature’ (yep, that’s what they are calling it) as of now. The report also claims that as of June 3, Facebook and Instagram are not actively listening to the new ports. Here’s what will possibly happen next: A lawsuit may be filed based on the report. An investigating committee might be formed to question the matter. The company will come up with lame excuses, such as misinterpretation or miscommunication of policy guidelines. Meta will eventually settle the lawsuit or bear the fine with pride, like it has always done.  The regulatory authorities are apparently chasing a rat that finds new holes to hide every day. Companies like Meta and Yandex seem to be one step ahead of these regulations and have mastered the art of finding loopholes. More than legislative technicalities, it’s the moral ethics of the company that become clear with incidents like this. The intent of these regulations is to protect personal information, and the fact that Meta and Yandex blatantly circumvent these regulations in their spirit shows the absolutely horrific state of capitalism these corporations are in. Krishi is a seasoned tech journalist with over four years of experience writing about PC hardware, consumer technology, and artificial intelligence.  Clarity and accessibility are at the core of Krishi’s writing style. He believes technology writing should empower readers—not confuse them—and he’s committed to ensuring his content is always easy to understand without sacrificing accuracy or depth. Over the years, Krishi has contributed to some of the most reputable names in the industry, including Techopedia, TechRadar, and Tom’s Guide. A man of many talents, Krishi has also proven his mettle as a crypto writer, tackling complex topics with both ease and zeal. His work spans various formats—from in-depth explainers and news coverage to feature pieces and buying guides.  Behind the scenes, Krishi operates from a dual-monitor setup (including a 29-inch LG UltraWide) that’s always buzzing with news feeds, technical documentation, and research notes, as well as the occasional gaming sessions that keep him fresh.  Krishi thrives on staying current, always ready to dive into the latest announcements, industry shifts, and their far-reaching impacts.  When he's not deep into research on the latest PC hardware news, Krishi would love to chat with you about day trading and the financial markets—oh! And cricket, as well. View all articles by Krishi Chowdhary Our editorial process The Tech Report editorial policy is centered on providing helpful, accurate content that offers real value to our readers. We only work with experienced writers who have specific knowledge in the topics they cover, including latest developments in technology, online privacy, cryptocurrencies, software, and more. Our editorial policy ensures that each topic is researched and curated by our in-house editors. We maintain rigorous journalistic standards, and every article is 100% written by real authors. More from News View all View all
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  • Pay for Performance -- How Do You Measure It?

    More enterprises have moved to pay-for-performance salary and promotion models that measure progress toward goals -- but how do you measure goals for a maintenance programmer who barrels through a request backlog but delivers marginal value for the business, or for a business analyst whose success is predicated on forging intangibles like trust and cooperation with users so things can get done? It’s an age-old question facing companies, now that 77% of them use some type of pay-for-performance model. What are some popular pay-for-performance use cases? A factory doing piece work that pays employees based upon the number of items they assemble. A call center that pays agents based on how many calls they complete per day. A bank teller who gets rewarded for how many customers they sign up for credit cards. An IT project team that gets a bonus for completing a major project ahead of schedule. The IT example differs from the others, because it depends on team and not individual execution, but there nevertheless is something tangible to measure. The other use cases are more clearcut -- although they don’t account for pieces in the plant that were poorly assembled in haste to make quota and had to be reworked, or a call center agent who pushes calls off to someone else so they can end their calls in six minutes or less, or the teller who signs up X number of customers for credit cards, although two-thirds of them never use the credit card they signed up for. Related:In short, there are flaws in pay-for-performance models just as there are in other types of compensation models that organizations use. So, what’s the best path for IT for CIOs who want to implement pay for performance? One approach is to measure pay for performance based upon four key elements: hard results, effort, skill, and communications. The mix of these elements will vary, depending on the type of position each IT staff member performs. Here are two examples of pay per performance by position: 1. Computer maintenance programmers and help desk specialists Historically, IT departments have used hard numbers like how many open requests a computer maintenance programmer has closed, or how many calls a help desk employee has solved. There is merit in using hard results, and hard results should be factored into performance reviews for these individuals -- but hard numbers don’t tell the whole story.  For example, how many times has a help desk agent gone the extra mile with a difficult user or software bug, taking the time to see the entire process through until it is thoroughly solved? lf the issue was of a global nature, did the Help Desk agent follow up by letting others who use the application know that a bug was fixed? For the maintenance programmer who has completed the most open requests, which of these requests really solved a major business pain point? For both help desk and maintenance programming employees, were the changes and fixes properly documented and communicated to everyone with a need to know? And did these employees demonstrate the skills needed to solve their issues? Related:It’s difficult to capture hard results on elements like effort, communication and skills, but one way to go about it is to survey user departments on individual levels of service and effectiveness. From there, it’s up to IT managers to determinate the “mix” of hard results, effort, communication and skills on which the employee will be evaluated, and to communicate upfront to the employee what the pay for performance assessment will be based on. 2. Business analysts and trainers Business analysts and trainers are difficult to quantify in pay for performance models because so much of their success depends upon other people. A business analyst can know everything there is to know about a particular business area and its systems, but if the analyst is working with unresponsive users, or lacks the soft skills needed to communicate with users, the pay for performance can’t be based upon the technology skillset alone.  Related:IT trainers face a somewhat different dilemma when it  comes to performance evaluation: they can produce the training that new staff members need before staff is deployed on key projects,  but if a project gets delayed and this causes trainees to lose the knowledge that they learned, there is little the trainer can do aside from offering a refresher course. Can pay for performance be used for positions like these? It’s a mixed answer. Yes, pay per performance can be used for trainers, based upon how many individuals the trainer trains and how many new courses the trainer obtains or develops. These are the hard results. However, since so much of training’s execution depends upon other people downstream, like project managers who must start projects on time so new skills aren’t lost,  managers of training should also consider pay for performance elements such as effort, skills and communication.  In sum, for both business analysts and trainers, there are hard results that can be factored into a pay for performance formula, but there is also a need to survey each position’s “customers” -- those individualswho utilized the business analyst’s or trainer’s skills and products to accomplish their respective objectives in projects and training. Were these user-customers satisfied?  Summary Remarks The value that IT employees contribute to overall IT and to the business at large is a combination of tangible and intangible results. Pay for performance models are well suited to gauge tangible outcomes, but they fall short when it comes to the intangibles that could be just as important. Many years ago, when Pat Riley was coaching the Los Angeles Lakers, an interviewer asked what type of metrics he used when he measured the effectiveness of individual players on the basketball court. Was it the number of points, rebounds, or assists? Riley said he used an “effort" index. For example, how many times did a player go up to get a rebound, even if he didn’t end up with the ball? Riley said the effort individual players exhibited mattered, because even if they didn’t get the rebound, they were creating situations so someone else on the team could. IT is similar. It’s why OKR International, a performance consultancy, stated “Intangibles often create or destroy value quietly -- until their impact is too big to ignore. In the long run, they are the unseen levers that determine whether strategy thrives or withers.”  What CIOs and IT leadership can do when they use pay for performance is to assure that hard results, effort, communications and skills are appropriately blended for each IT staff position, and its responsibilities and realities -- because you can’t attach a numerical measurement to everything -- but you can observe visible changes that begin to manifest when a business analyst turns around what has been a hostile relationship with a user department and you begin to get things done. 
    #pay #performance #how #you #measure
    Pay for Performance -- How Do You Measure It?
    More enterprises have moved to pay-for-performance salary and promotion models that measure progress toward goals -- but how do you measure goals for a maintenance programmer who barrels through a request backlog but delivers marginal value for the business, or for a business analyst whose success is predicated on forging intangibles like trust and cooperation with users so things can get done? It’s an age-old question facing companies, now that 77% of them use some type of pay-for-performance model. What are some popular pay-for-performance use cases? A factory doing piece work that pays employees based upon the number of items they assemble. A call center that pays agents based on how many calls they complete per day. A bank teller who gets rewarded for how many customers they sign up for credit cards. An IT project team that gets a bonus for completing a major project ahead of schedule. The IT example differs from the others, because it depends on team and not individual execution, but there nevertheless is something tangible to measure. The other use cases are more clearcut -- although they don’t account for pieces in the plant that were poorly assembled in haste to make quota and had to be reworked, or a call center agent who pushes calls off to someone else so they can end their calls in six minutes or less, or the teller who signs up X number of customers for credit cards, although two-thirds of them never use the credit card they signed up for. Related:In short, there are flaws in pay-for-performance models just as there are in other types of compensation models that organizations use. So, what’s the best path for IT for CIOs who want to implement pay for performance? One approach is to measure pay for performance based upon four key elements: hard results, effort, skill, and communications. The mix of these elements will vary, depending on the type of position each IT staff member performs. Here are two examples of pay per performance by position: 1. Computer maintenance programmers and help desk specialists Historically, IT departments have used hard numbers like how many open requests a computer maintenance programmer has closed, or how many calls a help desk employee has solved. There is merit in using hard results, and hard results should be factored into performance reviews for these individuals -- but hard numbers don’t tell the whole story.  For example, how many times has a help desk agent gone the extra mile with a difficult user or software bug, taking the time to see the entire process through until it is thoroughly solved? lf the issue was of a global nature, did the Help Desk agent follow up by letting others who use the application know that a bug was fixed? For the maintenance programmer who has completed the most open requests, which of these requests really solved a major business pain point? For both help desk and maintenance programming employees, were the changes and fixes properly documented and communicated to everyone with a need to know? And did these employees demonstrate the skills needed to solve their issues? Related:It’s difficult to capture hard results on elements like effort, communication and skills, but one way to go about it is to survey user departments on individual levels of service and effectiveness. From there, it’s up to IT managers to determinate the “mix” of hard results, effort, communication and skills on which the employee will be evaluated, and to communicate upfront to the employee what the pay for performance assessment will be based on. 2. Business analysts and trainers Business analysts and trainers are difficult to quantify in pay for performance models because so much of their success depends upon other people. A business analyst can know everything there is to know about a particular business area and its systems, but if the analyst is working with unresponsive users, or lacks the soft skills needed to communicate with users, the pay for performance can’t be based upon the technology skillset alone.  Related:IT trainers face a somewhat different dilemma when it  comes to performance evaluation: they can produce the training that new staff members need before staff is deployed on key projects,  but if a project gets delayed and this causes trainees to lose the knowledge that they learned, there is little the trainer can do aside from offering a refresher course. Can pay for performance be used for positions like these? It’s a mixed answer. Yes, pay per performance can be used for trainers, based upon how many individuals the trainer trains and how many new courses the trainer obtains or develops. These are the hard results. However, since so much of training’s execution depends upon other people downstream, like project managers who must start projects on time so new skills aren’t lost,  managers of training should also consider pay for performance elements such as effort, skills and communication.  In sum, for both business analysts and trainers, there are hard results that can be factored into a pay for performance formula, but there is also a need to survey each position’s “customers” -- those individualswho utilized the business analyst’s or trainer’s skills and products to accomplish their respective objectives in projects and training. Were these user-customers satisfied?  Summary Remarks The value that IT employees contribute to overall IT and to the business at large is a combination of tangible and intangible results. Pay for performance models are well suited to gauge tangible outcomes, but they fall short when it comes to the intangibles that could be just as important. Many years ago, when Pat Riley was coaching the Los Angeles Lakers, an interviewer asked what type of metrics he used when he measured the effectiveness of individual players on the basketball court. Was it the number of points, rebounds, or assists? Riley said he used an “effort" index. For example, how many times did a player go up to get a rebound, even if he didn’t end up with the ball? Riley said the effort individual players exhibited mattered, because even if they didn’t get the rebound, they were creating situations so someone else on the team could. IT is similar. It’s why OKR International, a performance consultancy, stated “Intangibles often create or destroy value quietly -- until their impact is too big to ignore. In the long run, they are the unseen levers that determine whether strategy thrives or withers.”  What CIOs and IT leadership can do when they use pay for performance is to assure that hard results, effort, communications and skills are appropriately blended for each IT staff position, and its responsibilities and realities -- because you can’t attach a numerical measurement to everything -- but you can observe visible changes that begin to manifest when a business analyst turns around what has been a hostile relationship with a user department and you begin to get things done.  #pay #performance #how #you #measure
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    Pay for Performance -- How Do You Measure It?
    More enterprises have moved to pay-for-performance salary and promotion models that measure progress toward goals -- but how do you measure goals for a maintenance programmer who barrels through a request backlog but delivers marginal value for the business, or for a business analyst whose success is predicated on forging intangibles like trust and cooperation with users so things can get done? It’s an age-old question facing companies, now that 77% of them use some type of pay-for-performance model. What are some popular pay-for-performance use cases? A factory doing piece work that pays employees based upon the number of items they assemble. A call center that pays agents based on how many calls they complete per day. A bank teller who gets rewarded for how many customers they sign up for credit cards. An IT project team that gets a bonus for completing a major project ahead of schedule. The IT example differs from the others, because it depends on team and not individual execution, but there nevertheless is something tangible to measure. The other use cases are more clearcut -- although they don’t account for pieces in the plant that were poorly assembled in haste to make quota and had to be reworked, or a call center agent who pushes calls off to someone else so they can end their calls in six minutes or less, or the teller who signs up X number of customers for credit cards, although two-thirds of them never use the credit card they signed up for. Related:In short, there are flaws in pay-for-performance models just as there are in other types of compensation models that organizations use. So, what’s the best path for IT for CIOs who want to implement pay for performance? One approach is to measure pay for performance based upon four key elements: hard results, effort, skill, and communications. The mix of these elements will vary, depending on the type of position each IT staff member performs. Here are two examples of pay per performance by position: 1. Computer maintenance programmers and help desk specialists Historically, IT departments have used hard numbers like how many open requests a computer maintenance programmer has closed, or how many calls a help desk employee has solved. There is merit in using hard results, and hard results should be factored into performance reviews for these individuals -- but hard numbers don’t tell the whole story.  For example, how many times has a help desk agent gone the extra mile with a difficult user or software bug, taking the time to see the entire process through until it is thoroughly solved? lf the issue was of a global nature, did the Help Desk agent follow up by letting others who use the application know that a bug was fixed? For the maintenance programmer who has completed the most open requests, which of these requests really solved a major business pain point? For both help desk and maintenance programming employees, were the changes and fixes properly documented and communicated to everyone with a need to know? And did these employees demonstrate the skills needed to solve their issues? Related:It’s difficult to capture hard results on elements like effort, communication and skills, but one way to go about it is to survey user departments on individual levels of service and effectiveness. From there, it’s up to IT managers to determinate the “mix” of hard results, effort, communication and skills on which the employee will be evaluated, and to communicate upfront to the employee what the pay for performance assessment will be based on. 2. Business analysts and trainers Business analysts and trainers are difficult to quantify in pay for performance models because so much of their success depends upon other people. A business analyst can know everything there is to know about a particular business area and its systems, but if the analyst is working with unresponsive users, or lacks the soft skills needed to communicate with users, the pay for performance can’t be based upon the technology skillset alone.  Related:IT trainers face a somewhat different dilemma when it  comes to performance evaluation: they can produce the training that new staff members need before staff is deployed on key projects,  but if a project gets delayed and this causes trainees to lose the knowledge that they learned, there is little the trainer can do aside from offering a refresher course. Can pay for performance be used for positions like these? It’s a mixed answer. Yes, pay per performance can be used for trainers, based upon how many individuals the trainer trains and how many new courses the trainer obtains or develops. These are the hard results. However, since so much of training’s execution depends upon other people downstream, like project managers who must start projects on time so new skills aren’t lost,  managers of training should also consider pay for performance elements such as effort (has the trainer consistently gone the extra mile to make things work?), skills and communication.  In sum, for both business analysts and trainers, there are hard results that can be factored into a pay for performance formula, but there is also a need to survey each position’s “customers” -- those individuals (and their managers) who utilized the business analyst’s or trainer’s skills and products to accomplish their respective objectives in projects and training. Were these user-customers satisfied?  Summary Remarks The value that IT employees contribute to overall IT and to the business at large is a combination of tangible and intangible results. Pay for performance models are well suited to gauge tangible outcomes, but they fall short when it comes to the intangibles that could be just as important. Many years ago, when Pat Riley was coaching the Los Angeles Lakers, an interviewer asked what type of metrics he used when he measured the effectiveness of individual players on the basketball court. Was it the number of points, rebounds, or assists? Riley said he used an “effort" index. For example, how many times did a player go up to get a rebound, even if he didn’t end up with the ball? Riley said the effort individual players exhibited mattered, because even if they didn’t get the rebound, they were creating situations so someone else on the team could. IT is similar. It’s why OKR International, a performance consultancy, stated “Intangibles often create or destroy value quietly -- until their impact is too big to ignore. In the long run, they are the unseen levers that determine whether strategy thrives or withers.”  What CIOs and IT leadership can do when they use pay for performance is to assure that hard results, effort, communications and skills are appropriately blended for each IT staff position, and its responsibilities and realities -- because you can’t attach a numerical measurement to everything -- but you can observe visible changes that begin to manifest when a business analyst turns around what has been a hostile relationship with a user department and you begin to get things done. 
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  • Nobody understands gambling, especially in video games

    In 2025, it’s very difficult not to see gambling advertised everywhere. It’s on billboards and sports broadcasts. It’s on podcasts and printed on the turnbuckle of AEW’s pay-per-view shows. And it’s on app stores, where you can find the FanDuel and DraftKings sportsbooks, alongside glitzy digital slot machines. These apps all have the highest age ratings possible on Apple’s App Store and Google Play. But earlier this year, a different kind of app nearly disappeared from the Play Store entirely.Luck Be A Landlord is a roguelite deckbuilder from solo developer Dan DiIorio. DiIorio got word from Google in January 2025 that Luck Be A Landlord was about to be pulled, globally, because DiIorio had not disclosed the game’s “gambling themes” in its rating.In Luck Be a Landlord, the player takes spins on a pixel art slot machine to earn coins to pay their ever-increasing rent — a nightmare gamification of our day-to-day grind to remain housed. On app stores, it’s a one-time purchase of and it’s on Steam. On the Play Store page, developer Dan DiIorio notes, “This game does not contain any real-world currency gambling or microtransactions.”And it doesn’t. But for Google, that didn’t matter. First, the game was removed from the storefront in a slew of countries that have strict gambling laws. Then, at the beginning of 2025, Google told Dilorio that Luck Be A Landlord would be pulled globally because of its rating discrepancy, as it “does not take into account references to gambling”.DiIorio had gone through this song and dance before — previously, when the game was blocked, he would send back a message saying “hey, the game doesn’t have gambling,” and then Google would send back a screenshot of the game and assert that, in fact, it had.DiIorio didn’t agree, but this time they decided that the risk of Landlord getting taken down permanently was too great. They’re a solo developer, and Luck Be a Landlord had just had its highest 30-day revenue since release. So, they filled out the form confirming that Luck Be A Landlord has “gambling themes,” and are currently hoping that this will be the end of it.This is a situation that sucks for an indie dev to be in, and over email DiIorio told Polygon it was “very frustrating.”“I think it can negatively affect indie developers if they fall outside the norm, which indies often do,” they wrote. “It also makes me afraid to explore mechanics like this further. It stifles creativity, and that’s really upsetting.”In late 2024, the hit game Balatro was in a similar position. It had won numerous awards, and made in its first week on mobile platforms. And then overnight, the PEGI ratings board declared that the game deserved an adult rating.The ESRB had already rated it E10+ in the US, noting it has gambling themes. And the game was already out in Europe, making its overnight ratings change a surprise. Publisher PlayStack said the rating was given because Balatro has “prominent gambling imagery and material that instructs about gambling.”Balatro is basically Luck Be A Landlord’s little cousin. Developer LocalThunk was inspired by watching streams of Luck Be A Landlord, and seeing the way DiIorio had implemented deck-building into his slot machine. And like Luck Be A Landlord, Balatro is a one-time purchase, with no microtransactions.But the PEGI board noted that because the game uses poker hands, the skills the player learns in Balatro could translate to real-world poker.In its write-up, GameSpot noted that the same thing happened to a game called Sunshine Shuffle. It was temporarily banned from the Nintendo eShop, and also from the entire country of South Korea. Unlike Balatro, Sunshine Shuffle actually is a poker game, except you’re playing Texas Hold ‘Em — again for no real money — with cute animals.It’s common sense that children shouldn’t be able to access apps that allow them to gamble. But none of these games contain actual gambling — or do they?Where do we draw the line? Is it gambling to play any game that is also played in casinos, like poker or blackjack? Is it gambling to play a game that evokes the aesthetics of a casino, like cards, chips, dice, or slot machines? Is it gambling to wager or earn fictional money?Gaming has always been a lightning rod for controversy. Sex, violence, misogyny, addiction — you name it, video games have been accused of perpetrating or encouraging it. But gambling is gaming’s original sin. And it’s the one we still can’t get a grip on.The original link between gambling and gamingGetty ImagesThe association between video games and gambling all goes back to pinball. Back in the ’30s and ’40s, politicians targeted pinball machines for promoting gambling. Early pinball machines were less skill-based, and some gave cash payouts, so the comparison wasn’t unfair. Famously, mob-hating New York City mayor Fiorello LaGuardia banned pinball in the city, and appeared in a newsreel dumping pinball and slot machines into the Long Island Sound. Pinball machines spent some time relegated to the back rooms of sex shops and dive bars. But after some lobbying, the laws relaxed.By the 1970s, pinball manufacturers were also making video games, and the machines were side-by-side in arcades. Arcade machines, like pinball, took small coin payments, repeatedly, for short rounds of play. The disreputable funk of pinball basically rubbed off onto video games.Ever since video games rocked onto the scene, concerned and sometimes uneducated parties have been asking if they’re dangerous. And in general, studies have shown that they’re not. The same can’t be said about gambling — the practice of putting real money down to bet on an outcome.It’s a golden age for gambling2025 in the USA is a great time for gambling, which has been really profitable for gambling companies — to the tune of billion dollars of revenue in 2023.To put this number in perspective, the American Gaming Association, which is the casino industry’s trade group and has nothing to do with video games, reports that 2022’s gambling revenue was billion. It went up billion in a year.And this increase isn’t just because of sportsbooks, although sports betting is a huge part of it. Online casinos and brick-and-mortar casinos are both earning more, and as a lot of people have pointed out, gambling is being normalized to a pretty disturbing degree.Much like with alcohol, for a small percentage of people, gambling can tip from occasional leisure activity into addiction. The people who are most at risk are, by and large, already vulnerable: researchers at the Yale School of Medicine found that 96% of problem gamblers are also wrestling with other disorders, such as “substance use, impulse-control disorders, mood disorders, and anxiety disorders.”Even if you’re not in that group, there are still good reasons to be wary of gambling. People tend to underestimate their own vulnerability to things they know are dangerous for others. Someone else might bet beyond their means. But I would simply know when to stop.Maybe you do! But being blithely confident about it can make it hard to notice if you do develop a problem. Or if you already have one.Addiction changes the way your brain works. When you’re addicted to something, your participation in it becomes compulsive, at the expense of other interests and responsibilities. Someone might turn to their addiction to self-soothe when depressed or anxious. And speaking of those feelings, people who are depressed and anxious are already more vulnerable to addiction. Given the entire state of the world right now, this predisposition shines an ugly light on the numbers touted by the AGA. Is it good that the industry is reporting billion in additional earnings, when the economy feels so frail, when the stock market is ping ponging through highs and lows daily, when daily expenses are rising? It doesn’t feel good. In 2024, the YouTuber Drew Gooden turned his critical eye to online gambling. One of the main points he makes in his excellent video is that gambling is more accessible than ever. It’s on all our phones, and betting companies are using decades of well-honed app design and behavioral studies to manipulate users to spend and spend.Meanwhile, advertising on podcasts, billboards, TV, radio, and websites – it’s literally everywhere — tells you that this is fun, and you don’t even need to know what you’re doing, and you’re probably one bet away from winning back those losses.Where does Luck Be a Landlord come into this?So, are there gambling themes in Luck Be A Landlord? The game’s slot machine is represented in simple pixel art. You pay one coin to use it, and among the more traditional slot machine symbols are silly ones like a snail that only pays out after 4 spins.When I started playing it, my primary emotion wasn’t necessarily elation at winning coins — it was stress and disbelief when, in the third round of the game, the landlord increased my rent by 100%. What the hell.I don’t doubt that getting better at it would produce dopamine thrills akin to gambling — or playing any video game. But it’s supposed to be difficult, because that’s the joke. If you beat the game you unlock more difficulty modes where, as you keep paying rent, your landlord gets furious, and starts throwing made-up rules at you: previously rare symbols will give you less of a payout, and the very mechanics of the slot machine change.It’s a manifestation of the golden rule of casinos, and all of capitalism writ large: the odds are stacked against you. The house always wins. There is luck involved, to be sure, but because Luck Be A Landlord is a deck-builder, knowing the different ways you can design your slot machine to maximize payouts is a skill! You have some influence over it, unlike a real slot machine. The synergies that I’ve seen high-level players create are completely nuts, and obviously based on a deep understanding of the strategies the game allows.IMAGE: TrampolineTales via PolygonBalatro and Luck Be a Landlord both distance themselves from casino gambling again in the way they treat money. In Landlord, the money you earn is gold coins, not any currency we recognize. And the payouts aren’t actually that big. By the end of the core game, the rent money you’re struggling and scraping to earn… is 777 coins. In the post-game endless mode, payouts can get massive. But the thing is, to get this far, you can’t rely on chance. You have to be very good at Luck Be a Landlord.And in Balatro, the numbers that get big are your points. The actual dollar payments in a round of Balatro are small. These aren’t games about earning wads and wads of cash. So, do these count as “gambling themes”?We’ll come back to that question later. First, I want to talk about a closer analog to what we colloquially consider gambling: loot boxes and gacha games.Random rewards: from Overwatch to the rise of gachaRecently, I did something that I haven’t done in a really long time: I thought about Overwatch. I used to play Overwatch with my friends, and I absolutely made a habit of dropping 20 bucks here or there for a bunch of seasonal loot boxes. This was never a problem behavior for me, but in hindsight, it does sting that over a couple of years, I dropped maybe on cosmetics for a game that now I primarily associate with squandered potential.Loot boxes grew out of free-to-play mobile games, where they’re the primary method of monetization. In something like Overwatch, they functioned as a way to earn additional revenue in an ongoing game, once the player had already dropped 40 bucks to buy it.More often than not, loot boxes are a random selection of skins and other cosmetics, but games like Star Wars: Battlefront 2 were famously criticized for launching with loot crates that essentially made it pay-to-win – if you bought enough of them and got lucky.It’s not unprecedented to associate loot boxes with gambling. A 2021 study published in Addictive Behaviors showed that players who self-reported as problem gamblers also tended to spend more on loot boxes, and another study done in the UK found a similar correlation with young adults.While Overwatch certainly wasn’t the first game to feature cosmetic loot boxes or microtransactions, it’s a reference point for me, and it also got attention worldwide. In 2018, Overwatch was investigated by the Belgian Gaming Commission, which found it “in violation of gambling legislation” alongside FIFA 18 and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. Belgium’s response was to ban the sale of loot boxes without a gambling license. Having a paid random rewards mechanic in a game is a criminal offense there. But not really. A 2023 study showed that 82% of iPhone games sold on the App Store in Belgium still use random paid monetization, as do around 80% of games that are rated 12+. The ban wasn’t effectively enforced, if at all, and the study recommends that a blanket ban wouldn’t actually be a practical solution anyway.Overwatch was rated T for Teen by the ESRB, and 12 by PEGI. When it first came out, its loot boxes were divisive. Since the mechanic came from F2P mobile games, which are often seen as predatory, people balked at seeing it in a big action game from a multi-million dollar publisher.At the time, the rebuttal was, “Well, at least it’s just cosmetics.” Nobody needs to buy loot boxes to be good at Overwatch.A lot has changed since 2016. Now we have a deeper understanding of how these mechanics are designed to manipulate players, even if they don’t affect gameplay. But also, they’ve been normalized. While there will always be people expressing disappointment when a AAA game has a paid random loot mechanic, it is no longer shocking.And if anything, these mechanics have only become more prevalent, thanks to the growth of gacha games. Gacha is short for “gachapon,” the Japanese capsule machines where you pay to receive one of a selection of random toys. Getty ImagesIn gacha games, players pay — not necessarily real money, but we’ll get to that — for a chance to get something. Maybe it’s a character, or a special weapon, or some gear — it depends on the game. Whatever it is, within that context, it’s desirable — and unlike the cosmetics of Overwatch, gacha pulls often do impact the gameplay.For example, in Infinity Nikki, you can pull for clothing items in these limited-time events. You have a chance to get pieces of a five-star outfit. But you also might pull one of a set of four-star items, or a permanent three-star piece. Of course, if you want all ten pieces of the five-star outfit, you have to do multiple pulls, each costing a handful of limited resources that you can earn in-game or purchase with money.Gacha was a fixture of mobile gaming for a long time, but in recent years, we’ve seen it go AAA, and global. MiHoYo’s Genshin Impact did a lot of that work when it came out worldwide on consoles and PC alongside its mobile release. Genshin and its successors are massive AAA games of a scale that, for your Nintendos and Ubisofts, would necessitate selling a bajillion copies to be a success. And they’re free.Genshin is an action game, whose playstyle changes depending on what character you’re playing — characters you get from gacha pulls, of course. In Zenless Zone Zero, the characters you can pull have different combo patterns, do different kinds of damage, and just feel different to play. And whereas in an early mobile gacha game like Love Nikki Dress UP! Queen the world was rudimentary, its modern descendant Infinity Nikki is, like Genshin, Breath of the Wild-esque. It is a massive open world, with collectibles and physics puzzles, platforming challenges, and a surprisingly involved storyline. Genshin Impact was the subject of an interesting study where researchers asked young adults in Hong Kong to self-report on their gacha spending habits. They found that, like with gambling, players who are not feeling good tend to spend more. “Young adult gacha gamers experiencing greater stress and anxiety tend to spend more on gacha purchases, have more motives for gacha purchases, and participate in more gambling activities,” they wrote. “This group is at a particularly higher risk of becoming problem gamblers.”One thing that is important to note is that Genshin Impact came out in 2020. The study was self-reported, and it was done during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic. It was a time when people were experiencing a lot of stress, and also fewer options to relieve that stress. We were all stuck inside gaming.But the fact that stress can make people more likely to spend money on gacha shows that while the gacha model isn’t necessarily harmful to everyone, it is exploitative to everyone. Since I started writing this story, another self-reported study came out in Japan, where 18.8% of people in their 20s say they’ve spent money on gacha rather than on things like food or rent.Following Genshin Impact’s release, MiHoYo put out Honkai: Star Rail and Zenless Zone Zero. All are shiny, big-budget games that are free to play, but dangle the lure of making just one purchase in front of the player. Maybe you could drop five bucks on a handful of in-game currency to get one more pull. Or maybe just this month you’ll get the second tier of rewards on the game’s equivalent of a Battle Pass. The game is free, after all — but haven’t you enjoyed at least ten dollars’ worth of gameplay? Image: HoyoverseI spent most of my December throwing myself into Infinity Nikki. I had been so stressed, and the game was so soothing. I logged in daily to fulfill my daily wishes and earn my XP, diamonds, Threads of Purity, and bling. I accumulated massive amounts of resources. I haven’t spent money on the game. I’m trying not to, and so far, it’s been pretty easy. I’ve been super happy with how much stuff I can get for free, and how much I can do! I actually feel really good about that — which is what I said to my boyfriend, and he replied, “Yeah, that’s the point. That’s how they get you.”And he’s right. Currently, Infinity Nikki players are embroiled in a war with developer Infold, after Infold introduced yet another currency type with deep ties to Nikki’s gacha system. Every one of these gacha games has its own tangled system of overlapping currencies. Some can only be used on gacha pulls. Some can only be used to upgrade items. Many of them can be purchased with human money.Image: InFold Games/Papergames via PolygonAll of this adds up. According to Sensor Towers’ data, Genshin Impact earned over 36 million dollars on mobile alone in a single month of 2024. I don’t know what Dan DiIorio’s peak monthly revenue for Luck Be A Landlord was, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t that.A lot of the spending guardrails we see in games like these are actually the result of regulations in other territories, especially China, where gacha has been a big deal for a lot longer. For example, gacha games have a daily limit on loot boxes, with the number clearly displayed, and a system collectively called “pity,” where getting the banner item is guaranteed after a certain number of pulls. Lastly, developers have to be clear about what the odds are. When I log in to spend the Revelation Crystals I’ve spent weeks hoarding in my F2P Infinity Nikki experience, I know that I have a 1.5% chance of pulling a 5-star piece, and that the odds can go up to 6.06%, and that I am guaranteed to get one within 20 pulls, because of the pity system.So, these odds are awful. But it is not as merciless as sitting down at a Vegas slot machine, an experience best described as “oh… that’s it?”There’s not a huge philosophical difference between buying a pack of loot boxes in Overwatch, a pull in Genshin Impact, or even a booster of Pokémon cards. You put in money, you get back randomized stuff that may or may not be what you want. In the dictionary definition, it’s a gamble. But unlike the slot machine, it’s not like you’re trying to win money by doing it, unless you’re selling those Pokémon cards, which is a topic for another time.But since even a game where you don’t get anything, like Balatro or Luck Be A Landlord, can come under fire for promoting gambling to kids, it would seem appropriate for app stores and ratings boards to take a similarly hardline stance with gacha.Instead, all these games are rated T for Teen by the ESRB, and PEGI 12 in the EU.The ESRB ratings for these games note that they contain in-game purchases, including random items. Honkai: Star Rail’s rating specifically calls out a slot machine mechanic, where players spend tokens to win a prize. But other than calling out Honkai’s slot machine, app stores are not slapping Genshin or Nikki with an 18+ rating. Meanwhile, Balatro had a PEGI rating of 18 until a successful appeal in February 2025, and Luck Be a Landlord is still 17+ on Apple’s App Store.Nobody knows what they’re doingWhen I started researching this piece, I felt very strongly that it was absurd that Luck Be A Landlord and Balatro had age ratings this high.I still believe that the way both devs have been treated by ratings boards is bad. Threatening an indie dev with a significant loss of income by pulling their game is bad, not giving them a way to defend themself or help them understand why it’s happening is even worse. It’s an extension of the general way that too-big-to-fail companies like Google treat all their customers.DiIorio told me that while it felt like a human being had at least looked at Luck Be A Landlord to make the determination that it contained gambling themes, the emails he was getting were automatic, and he doesn’t have a contact at Google to ask why this happened or how he can avoid it in the future — an experience that will be familiar to anyone who has ever needed Google support. But what’s changed for me is that I’m not actually sure anymore that games that don’t have gambling should be completely let off the hook for evoking gambling.Exposing teens to simulated gambling without financial stakes could spark an interest in the real thing later on, according to a study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. It’s the same reason you can’t mosey down to the drug store to buy candy cigarettes. Multiple studies were done that showed kids who ate candy cigarettes were more likely to take up smokingSo while I still think rating something like Balatro 18+ is nuts, I also think that describing it appropriately might be reasonable. As a game, it’s completely divorced from literally any kind of play you would find in a casino — but I can see the concern that the thrill of flashy numbers and the shiny cards might encourage young players to try their hand at poker in a real casino, where a real house can take their money.Maybe what’s more important than doling out high age ratings is helping people think about how media can affect us. In the same way that, when I was 12 and obsessed with The Matrix, my parents gently made sure that I knew that none of the violence was real and you can’t actually cartwheel through a hail of bullets in real life. Thanks, mom and dad!But that’s an answer that’s a lot more abstract and difficult to implement than a big red 18+ banner. When it comes to gacha, I think we’re even less equipped to talk about these game mechanics, and I’m certain they’re not being age-rated appropriately. On the one hand, like I said earlier, gacha exploits the player’s desire for stuff that they are heavily manipulated to buy with real money. On the other hand, I think it’s worth acknowledging that there is a difference between gacha and casino gambling.Problem gamblers aren’t satisfied by winning — the thing they’re addicted to is playing, and the risk that comes with it. In gacha games, players do report satisfaction when they achieve the prize they set out to get. And yes, in the game’s next season, the developer will be dangling a shiny new prize in front of them with the goal of starting the cycle over. But I think it’s fair to make the distinction, while still being highly critical of the model.And right now, there is close to no incentive for app stores to crack down on gacha in any way. They get a cut of in-app purchases. Back in 2023, miHoYo tried a couple of times to set up payment systems that circumvented Apple’s 30% cut of in-app spending. Both times, it was thwarted by Apple, whose App Store generated trillion in developer billings and sales in 2022.According to Apple itself, 90% of that money did not include any commission to Apple. Fortunately for Apple, ten percent of a trillion dollars is still one hundred billion dollars, which I would also like to have in my bank account. Apple has zero reason to curb spending on games that have been earning millions of dollars every month for years.And despite the popularity of Luck Be A Landlord and Balatro’s massive App Store success, these games will never be as lucrative. They’re one-time purchases, and they don’t have microtransactions. To add insult to injury, like most popular games, Luck Be A Landlord has a lot of clones. And from what I can tell, it doesn’t look like any of them have been made to indicate that their games contain the dreaded “gambling themes” that Google was so worried about in Landlord.In particular, a game called SpinCraft: Roguelike from Sneaky Panda Games raised million in seed funding for “inventing the Luck-Puzzler genre,” which it introduced in 2022, while Luck Be A Landlord went into early access in 2021.It’s free-to-play, has ads and in-app purchases, looks like Fisher Price made a slot machine, and it’s rated E for everyone, with no mention of gambling imagery in its rating. I reached out to the developers to ask if they had also been contacted by the Play Store to disclose that their game has gambling themes, but I haven’t heard back.Borrowing mechanics in games is as old as time, and it’s something I in no way want to imply shouldn’t happen because copyright is the killer of invention — but I think we can all agree that the system is broken.There is no consistency in how games with random chance are treated. We still do not know how to talk about gambling, or gambling themes, and at the end of the day, the results of this are the same: the house always wins.See More:
    #nobody #understands #gambling #especially #video
    Nobody understands gambling, especially in video games
    In 2025, it’s very difficult not to see gambling advertised everywhere. It’s on billboards and sports broadcasts. It’s on podcasts and printed on the turnbuckle of AEW’s pay-per-view shows. And it’s on app stores, where you can find the FanDuel and DraftKings sportsbooks, alongside glitzy digital slot machines. These apps all have the highest age ratings possible on Apple’s App Store and Google Play. But earlier this year, a different kind of app nearly disappeared from the Play Store entirely.Luck Be A Landlord is a roguelite deckbuilder from solo developer Dan DiIorio. DiIorio got word from Google in January 2025 that Luck Be A Landlord was about to be pulled, globally, because DiIorio had not disclosed the game’s “gambling themes” in its rating.In Luck Be a Landlord, the player takes spins on a pixel art slot machine to earn coins to pay their ever-increasing rent — a nightmare gamification of our day-to-day grind to remain housed. On app stores, it’s a one-time purchase of and it’s on Steam. On the Play Store page, developer Dan DiIorio notes, “This game does not contain any real-world currency gambling or microtransactions.”And it doesn’t. But for Google, that didn’t matter. First, the game was removed from the storefront in a slew of countries that have strict gambling laws. Then, at the beginning of 2025, Google told Dilorio that Luck Be A Landlord would be pulled globally because of its rating discrepancy, as it “does not take into account references to gambling”.DiIorio had gone through this song and dance before — previously, when the game was blocked, he would send back a message saying “hey, the game doesn’t have gambling,” and then Google would send back a screenshot of the game and assert that, in fact, it had.DiIorio didn’t agree, but this time they decided that the risk of Landlord getting taken down permanently was too great. They’re a solo developer, and Luck Be a Landlord had just had its highest 30-day revenue since release. So, they filled out the form confirming that Luck Be A Landlord has “gambling themes,” and are currently hoping that this will be the end of it.This is a situation that sucks for an indie dev to be in, and over email DiIorio told Polygon it was “very frustrating.”“I think it can negatively affect indie developers if they fall outside the norm, which indies often do,” they wrote. “It also makes me afraid to explore mechanics like this further. It stifles creativity, and that’s really upsetting.”In late 2024, the hit game Balatro was in a similar position. It had won numerous awards, and made in its first week on mobile platforms. And then overnight, the PEGI ratings board declared that the game deserved an adult rating.The ESRB had already rated it E10+ in the US, noting it has gambling themes. And the game was already out in Europe, making its overnight ratings change a surprise. Publisher PlayStack said the rating was given because Balatro has “prominent gambling imagery and material that instructs about gambling.”Balatro is basically Luck Be A Landlord’s little cousin. Developer LocalThunk was inspired by watching streams of Luck Be A Landlord, and seeing the way DiIorio had implemented deck-building into his slot machine. And like Luck Be A Landlord, Balatro is a one-time purchase, with no microtransactions.But the PEGI board noted that because the game uses poker hands, the skills the player learns in Balatro could translate to real-world poker.In its write-up, GameSpot noted that the same thing happened to a game called Sunshine Shuffle. It was temporarily banned from the Nintendo eShop, and also from the entire country of South Korea. Unlike Balatro, Sunshine Shuffle actually is a poker game, except you’re playing Texas Hold ‘Em — again for no real money — with cute animals.It’s common sense that children shouldn’t be able to access apps that allow them to gamble. But none of these games contain actual gambling — or do they?Where do we draw the line? Is it gambling to play any game that is also played in casinos, like poker or blackjack? Is it gambling to play a game that evokes the aesthetics of a casino, like cards, chips, dice, or slot machines? Is it gambling to wager or earn fictional money?Gaming has always been a lightning rod for controversy. Sex, violence, misogyny, addiction — you name it, video games have been accused of perpetrating or encouraging it. But gambling is gaming’s original sin. And it’s the one we still can’t get a grip on.The original link between gambling and gamingGetty ImagesThe association between video games and gambling all goes back to pinball. Back in the ’30s and ’40s, politicians targeted pinball machines for promoting gambling. Early pinball machines were less skill-based, and some gave cash payouts, so the comparison wasn’t unfair. Famously, mob-hating New York City mayor Fiorello LaGuardia banned pinball in the city, and appeared in a newsreel dumping pinball and slot machines into the Long Island Sound. Pinball machines spent some time relegated to the back rooms of sex shops and dive bars. But after some lobbying, the laws relaxed.By the 1970s, pinball manufacturers were also making video games, and the machines were side-by-side in arcades. Arcade machines, like pinball, took small coin payments, repeatedly, for short rounds of play. The disreputable funk of pinball basically rubbed off onto video games.Ever since video games rocked onto the scene, concerned and sometimes uneducated parties have been asking if they’re dangerous. And in general, studies have shown that they’re not. The same can’t be said about gambling — the practice of putting real money down to bet on an outcome.It’s a golden age for gambling2025 in the USA is a great time for gambling, which has been really profitable for gambling companies — to the tune of billion dollars of revenue in 2023.To put this number in perspective, the American Gaming Association, which is the casino industry’s trade group and has nothing to do with video games, reports that 2022’s gambling revenue was billion. It went up billion in a year.And this increase isn’t just because of sportsbooks, although sports betting is a huge part of it. Online casinos and brick-and-mortar casinos are both earning more, and as a lot of people have pointed out, gambling is being normalized to a pretty disturbing degree.Much like with alcohol, for a small percentage of people, gambling can tip from occasional leisure activity into addiction. The people who are most at risk are, by and large, already vulnerable: researchers at the Yale School of Medicine found that 96% of problem gamblers are also wrestling with other disorders, such as “substance use, impulse-control disorders, mood disorders, and anxiety disorders.”Even if you’re not in that group, there are still good reasons to be wary of gambling. People tend to underestimate their own vulnerability to things they know are dangerous for others. Someone else might bet beyond their means. But I would simply know when to stop.Maybe you do! But being blithely confident about it can make it hard to notice if you do develop a problem. Or if you already have one.Addiction changes the way your brain works. When you’re addicted to something, your participation in it becomes compulsive, at the expense of other interests and responsibilities. Someone might turn to their addiction to self-soothe when depressed or anxious. And speaking of those feelings, people who are depressed and anxious are already more vulnerable to addiction. Given the entire state of the world right now, this predisposition shines an ugly light on the numbers touted by the AGA. Is it good that the industry is reporting billion in additional earnings, when the economy feels so frail, when the stock market is ping ponging through highs and lows daily, when daily expenses are rising? It doesn’t feel good. In 2024, the YouTuber Drew Gooden turned his critical eye to online gambling. One of the main points he makes in his excellent video is that gambling is more accessible than ever. It’s on all our phones, and betting companies are using decades of well-honed app design and behavioral studies to manipulate users to spend and spend.Meanwhile, advertising on podcasts, billboards, TV, radio, and websites – it’s literally everywhere — tells you that this is fun, and you don’t even need to know what you’re doing, and you’re probably one bet away from winning back those losses.Where does Luck Be a Landlord come into this?So, are there gambling themes in Luck Be A Landlord? The game’s slot machine is represented in simple pixel art. You pay one coin to use it, and among the more traditional slot machine symbols are silly ones like a snail that only pays out after 4 spins.When I started playing it, my primary emotion wasn’t necessarily elation at winning coins — it was stress and disbelief when, in the third round of the game, the landlord increased my rent by 100%. What the hell.I don’t doubt that getting better at it would produce dopamine thrills akin to gambling — or playing any video game. But it’s supposed to be difficult, because that’s the joke. If you beat the game you unlock more difficulty modes where, as you keep paying rent, your landlord gets furious, and starts throwing made-up rules at you: previously rare symbols will give you less of a payout, and the very mechanics of the slot machine change.It’s a manifestation of the golden rule of casinos, and all of capitalism writ large: the odds are stacked against you. The house always wins. There is luck involved, to be sure, but because Luck Be A Landlord is a deck-builder, knowing the different ways you can design your slot machine to maximize payouts is a skill! You have some influence over it, unlike a real slot machine. The synergies that I’ve seen high-level players create are completely nuts, and obviously based on a deep understanding of the strategies the game allows.IMAGE: TrampolineTales via PolygonBalatro and Luck Be a Landlord both distance themselves from casino gambling again in the way they treat money. In Landlord, the money you earn is gold coins, not any currency we recognize. And the payouts aren’t actually that big. By the end of the core game, the rent money you’re struggling and scraping to earn… is 777 coins. In the post-game endless mode, payouts can get massive. But the thing is, to get this far, you can’t rely on chance. You have to be very good at Luck Be a Landlord.And in Balatro, the numbers that get big are your points. The actual dollar payments in a round of Balatro are small. These aren’t games about earning wads and wads of cash. So, do these count as “gambling themes”?We’ll come back to that question later. First, I want to talk about a closer analog to what we colloquially consider gambling: loot boxes and gacha games.Random rewards: from Overwatch to the rise of gachaRecently, I did something that I haven’t done in a really long time: I thought about Overwatch. I used to play Overwatch with my friends, and I absolutely made a habit of dropping 20 bucks here or there for a bunch of seasonal loot boxes. This was never a problem behavior for me, but in hindsight, it does sting that over a couple of years, I dropped maybe on cosmetics for a game that now I primarily associate with squandered potential.Loot boxes grew out of free-to-play mobile games, where they’re the primary method of monetization. In something like Overwatch, they functioned as a way to earn additional revenue in an ongoing game, once the player had already dropped 40 bucks to buy it.More often than not, loot boxes are a random selection of skins and other cosmetics, but games like Star Wars: Battlefront 2 were famously criticized for launching with loot crates that essentially made it pay-to-win – if you bought enough of them and got lucky.It’s not unprecedented to associate loot boxes with gambling. A 2021 study published in Addictive Behaviors showed that players who self-reported as problem gamblers also tended to spend more on loot boxes, and another study done in the UK found a similar correlation with young adults.While Overwatch certainly wasn’t the first game to feature cosmetic loot boxes or microtransactions, it’s a reference point for me, and it also got attention worldwide. In 2018, Overwatch was investigated by the Belgian Gaming Commission, which found it “in violation of gambling legislation” alongside FIFA 18 and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. Belgium’s response was to ban the sale of loot boxes without a gambling license. Having a paid random rewards mechanic in a game is a criminal offense there. But not really. A 2023 study showed that 82% of iPhone games sold on the App Store in Belgium still use random paid monetization, as do around 80% of games that are rated 12+. The ban wasn’t effectively enforced, if at all, and the study recommends that a blanket ban wouldn’t actually be a practical solution anyway.Overwatch was rated T for Teen by the ESRB, and 12 by PEGI. When it first came out, its loot boxes were divisive. Since the mechanic came from F2P mobile games, which are often seen as predatory, people balked at seeing it in a big action game from a multi-million dollar publisher.At the time, the rebuttal was, “Well, at least it’s just cosmetics.” Nobody needs to buy loot boxes to be good at Overwatch.A lot has changed since 2016. Now we have a deeper understanding of how these mechanics are designed to manipulate players, even if they don’t affect gameplay. But also, they’ve been normalized. While there will always be people expressing disappointment when a AAA game has a paid random loot mechanic, it is no longer shocking.And if anything, these mechanics have only become more prevalent, thanks to the growth of gacha games. Gacha is short for “gachapon,” the Japanese capsule machines where you pay to receive one of a selection of random toys. Getty ImagesIn gacha games, players pay — not necessarily real money, but we’ll get to that — for a chance to get something. Maybe it’s a character, or a special weapon, or some gear — it depends on the game. Whatever it is, within that context, it’s desirable — and unlike the cosmetics of Overwatch, gacha pulls often do impact the gameplay.For example, in Infinity Nikki, you can pull for clothing items in these limited-time events. You have a chance to get pieces of a five-star outfit. But you also might pull one of a set of four-star items, or a permanent three-star piece. Of course, if you want all ten pieces of the five-star outfit, you have to do multiple pulls, each costing a handful of limited resources that you can earn in-game or purchase with money.Gacha was a fixture of mobile gaming for a long time, but in recent years, we’ve seen it go AAA, and global. MiHoYo’s Genshin Impact did a lot of that work when it came out worldwide on consoles and PC alongside its mobile release. Genshin and its successors are massive AAA games of a scale that, for your Nintendos and Ubisofts, would necessitate selling a bajillion copies to be a success. And they’re free.Genshin is an action game, whose playstyle changes depending on what character you’re playing — characters you get from gacha pulls, of course. In Zenless Zone Zero, the characters you can pull have different combo patterns, do different kinds of damage, and just feel different to play. And whereas in an early mobile gacha game like Love Nikki Dress UP! Queen the world was rudimentary, its modern descendant Infinity Nikki is, like Genshin, Breath of the Wild-esque. It is a massive open world, with collectibles and physics puzzles, platforming challenges, and a surprisingly involved storyline. Genshin Impact was the subject of an interesting study where researchers asked young adults in Hong Kong to self-report on their gacha spending habits. They found that, like with gambling, players who are not feeling good tend to spend more. “Young adult gacha gamers experiencing greater stress and anxiety tend to spend more on gacha purchases, have more motives for gacha purchases, and participate in more gambling activities,” they wrote. “This group is at a particularly higher risk of becoming problem gamblers.”One thing that is important to note is that Genshin Impact came out in 2020. The study was self-reported, and it was done during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic. It was a time when people were experiencing a lot of stress, and also fewer options to relieve that stress. We were all stuck inside gaming.But the fact that stress can make people more likely to spend money on gacha shows that while the gacha model isn’t necessarily harmful to everyone, it is exploitative to everyone. Since I started writing this story, another self-reported study came out in Japan, where 18.8% of people in their 20s say they’ve spent money on gacha rather than on things like food or rent.Following Genshin Impact’s release, MiHoYo put out Honkai: Star Rail and Zenless Zone Zero. All are shiny, big-budget games that are free to play, but dangle the lure of making just one purchase in front of the player. Maybe you could drop five bucks on a handful of in-game currency to get one more pull. Or maybe just this month you’ll get the second tier of rewards on the game’s equivalent of a Battle Pass. The game is free, after all — but haven’t you enjoyed at least ten dollars’ worth of gameplay? Image: HoyoverseI spent most of my December throwing myself into Infinity Nikki. I had been so stressed, and the game was so soothing. I logged in daily to fulfill my daily wishes and earn my XP, diamonds, Threads of Purity, and bling. I accumulated massive amounts of resources. I haven’t spent money on the game. I’m trying not to, and so far, it’s been pretty easy. I’ve been super happy with how much stuff I can get for free, and how much I can do! I actually feel really good about that — which is what I said to my boyfriend, and he replied, “Yeah, that’s the point. That’s how they get you.”And he’s right. Currently, Infinity Nikki players are embroiled in a war with developer Infold, after Infold introduced yet another currency type with deep ties to Nikki’s gacha system. Every one of these gacha games has its own tangled system of overlapping currencies. Some can only be used on gacha pulls. Some can only be used to upgrade items. Many of them can be purchased with human money.Image: InFold Games/Papergames via PolygonAll of this adds up. According to Sensor Towers’ data, Genshin Impact earned over 36 million dollars on mobile alone in a single month of 2024. I don’t know what Dan DiIorio’s peak monthly revenue for Luck Be A Landlord was, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t that.A lot of the spending guardrails we see in games like these are actually the result of regulations in other territories, especially China, where gacha has been a big deal for a lot longer. For example, gacha games have a daily limit on loot boxes, with the number clearly displayed, and a system collectively called “pity,” where getting the banner item is guaranteed after a certain number of pulls. Lastly, developers have to be clear about what the odds are. When I log in to spend the Revelation Crystals I’ve spent weeks hoarding in my F2P Infinity Nikki experience, I know that I have a 1.5% chance of pulling a 5-star piece, and that the odds can go up to 6.06%, and that I am guaranteed to get one within 20 pulls, because of the pity system.So, these odds are awful. But it is not as merciless as sitting down at a Vegas slot machine, an experience best described as “oh… that’s it?”There’s not a huge philosophical difference between buying a pack of loot boxes in Overwatch, a pull in Genshin Impact, or even a booster of Pokémon cards. You put in money, you get back randomized stuff that may or may not be what you want. In the dictionary definition, it’s a gamble. But unlike the slot machine, it’s not like you’re trying to win money by doing it, unless you’re selling those Pokémon cards, which is a topic for another time.But since even a game where you don’t get anything, like Balatro or Luck Be A Landlord, can come under fire for promoting gambling to kids, it would seem appropriate for app stores and ratings boards to take a similarly hardline stance with gacha.Instead, all these games are rated T for Teen by the ESRB, and PEGI 12 in the EU.The ESRB ratings for these games note that they contain in-game purchases, including random items. Honkai: Star Rail’s rating specifically calls out a slot machine mechanic, where players spend tokens to win a prize. But other than calling out Honkai’s slot machine, app stores are not slapping Genshin or Nikki with an 18+ rating. Meanwhile, Balatro had a PEGI rating of 18 until a successful appeal in February 2025, and Luck Be a Landlord is still 17+ on Apple’s App Store.Nobody knows what they’re doingWhen I started researching this piece, I felt very strongly that it was absurd that Luck Be A Landlord and Balatro had age ratings this high.I still believe that the way both devs have been treated by ratings boards is bad. Threatening an indie dev with a significant loss of income by pulling their game is bad, not giving them a way to defend themself or help them understand why it’s happening is even worse. It’s an extension of the general way that too-big-to-fail companies like Google treat all their customers.DiIorio told me that while it felt like a human being had at least looked at Luck Be A Landlord to make the determination that it contained gambling themes, the emails he was getting were automatic, and he doesn’t have a contact at Google to ask why this happened or how he can avoid it in the future — an experience that will be familiar to anyone who has ever needed Google support. But what’s changed for me is that I’m not actually sure anymore that games that don’t have gambling should be completely let off the hook for evoking gambling.Exposing teens to simulated gambling without financial stakes could spark an interest in the real thing later on, according to a study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. It’s the same reason you can’t mosey down to the drug store to buy candy cigarettes. Multiple studies were done that showed kids who ate candy cigarettes were more likely to take up smokingSo while I still think rating something like Balatro 18+ is nuts, I also think that describing it appropriately might be reasonable. As a game, it’s completely divorced from literally any kind of play you would find in a casino — but I can see the concern that the thrill of flashy numbers and the shiny cards might encourage young players to try their hand at poker in a real casino, where a real house can take their money.Maybe what’s more important than doling out high age ratings is helping people think about how media can affect us. In the same way that, when I was 12 and obsessed with The Matrix, my parents gently made sure that I knew that none of the violence was real and you can’t actually cartwheel through a hail of bullets in real life. Thanks, mom and dad!But that’s an answer that’s a lot more abstract and difficult to implement than a big red 18+ banner. When it comes to gacha, I think we’re even less equipped to talk about these game mechanics, and I’m certain they’re not being age-rated appropriately. On the one hand, like I said earlier, gacha exploits the player’s desire for stuff that they are heavily manipulated to buy with real money. On the other hand, I think it’s worth acknowledging that there is a difference between gacha and casino gambling.Problem gamblers aren’t satisfied by winning — the thing they’re addicted to is playing, and the risk that comes with it. In gacha games, players do report satisfaction when they achieve the prize they set out to get. And yes, in the game’s next season, the developer will be dangling a shiny new prize in front of them with the goal of starting the cycle over. But I think it’s fair to make the distinction, while still being highly critical of the model.And right now, there is close to no incentive for app stores to crack down on gacha in any way. They get a cut of in-app purchases. Back in 2023, miHoYo tried a couple of times to set up payment systems that circumvented Apple’s 30% cut of in-app spending. Both times, it was thwarted by Apple, whose App Store generated trillion in developer billings and sales in 2022.According to Apple itself, 90% of that money did not include any commission to Apple. Fortunately for Apple, ten percent of a trillion dollars is still one hundred billion dollars, which I would also like to have in my bank account. Apple has zero reason to curb spending on games that have been earning millions of dollars every month for years.And despite the popularity of Luck Be A Landlord and Balatro’s massive App Store success, these games will never be as lucrative. They’re one-time purchases, and they don’t have microtransactions. To add insult to injury, like most popular games, Luck Be A Landlord has a lot of clones. And from what I can tell, it doesn’t look like any of them have been made to indicate that their games contain the dreaded “gambling themes” that Google was so worried about in Landlord.In particular, a game called SpinCraft: Roguelike from Sneaky Panda Games raised million in seed funding for “inventing the Luck-Puzzler genre,” which it introduced in 2022, while Luck Be A Landlord went into early access in 2021.It’s free-to-play, has ads and in-app purchases, looks like Fisher Price made a slot machine, and it’s rated E for everyone, with no mention of gambling imagery in its rating. I reached out to the developers to ask if they had also been contacted by the Play Store to disclose that their game has gambling themes, but I haven’t heard back.Borrowing mechanics in games is as old as time, and it’s something I in no way want to imply shouldn’t happen because copyright is the killer of invention — but I think we can all agree that the system is broken.There is no consistency in how games with random chance are treated. We still do not know how to talk about gambling, or gambling themes, and at the end of the day, the results of this are the same: the house always wins.See More: #nobody #understands #gambling #especially #video
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    Nobody understands gambling, especially in video games
    In 2025, it’s very difficult not to see gambling advertised everywhere. It’s on billboards and sports broadcasts. It’s on podcasts and printed on the turnbuckle of AEW’s pay-per-view shows. And it’s on app stores, where you can find the FanDuel and DraftKings sportsbooks, alongside glitzy digital slot machines. These apps all have the highest age ratings possible on Apple’s App Store and Google Play. But earlier this year, a different kind of app nearly disappeared from the Play Store entirely.Luck Be A Landlord is a roguelite deckbuilder from solo developer Dan DiIorio. DiIorio got word from Google in January 2025 that Luck Be A Landlord was about to be pulled, globally, because DiIorio had not disclosed the game’s “gambling themes” in its rating.In Luck Be a Landlord, the player takes spins on a pixel art slot machine to earn coins to pay their ever-increasing rent — a nightmare gamification of our day-to-day grind to remain housed. On app stores, it’s a one-time purchase of $4.99, and it’s $9.99 on Steam. On the Play Store page, developer Dan DiIorio notes, “This game does not contain any real-world currency gambling or microtransactions.”And it doesn’t. But for Google, that didn’t matter. First, the game was removed from the storefront in a slew of countries that have strict gambling laws. Then, at the beginning of 2025, Google told Dilorio that Luck Be A Landlord would be pulled globally because of its rating discrepancy, as it “does not take into account references to gambling (including real or simulated gambling)”.DiIorio had gone through this song and dance before — previously, when the game was blocked, he would send back a message saying “hey, the game doesn’t have gambling,” and then Google would send back a screenshot of the game and assert that, in fact, it had.DiIorio didn’t agree, but this time they decided that the risk of Landlord getting taken down permanently was too great. They’re a solo developer, and Luck Be a Landlord had just had its highest 30-day revenue since release. So, they filled out the form confirming that Luck Be A Landlord has “gambling themes,” and are currently hoping that this will be the end of it.This is a situation that sucks for an indie dev to be in, and over email DiIorio told Polygon it was “very frustrating.”“I think it can negatively affect indie developers if they fall outside the norm, which indies often do,” they wrote. “It also makes me afraid to explore mechanics like this further. It stifles creativity, and that’s really upsetting.”In late 2024, the hit game Balatro was in a similar position. It had won numerous awards, and made $1,000,000 in its first week on mobile platforms. And then overnight, the PEGI ratings board declared that the game deserved an adult rating.The ESRB had already rated it E10+ in the US, noting it has gambling themes. And the game was already out in Europe, making its overnight ratings change a surprise. Publisher PlayStack said the rating was given because Balatro has “prominent gambling imagery and material that instructs about gambling.”Balatro is basically Luck Be A Landlord’s little cousin. Developer LocalThunk was inspired by watching streams of Luck Be A Landlord, and seeing the way DiIorio had implemented deck-building into his slot machine. And like Luck Be A Landlord, Balatro is a one-time purchase, with no microtransactions.But the PEGI board noted that because the game uses poker hands, the skills the player learns in Balatro could translate to real-world poker.In its write-up, GameSpot noted that the same thing happened to a game called Sunshine Shuffle. It was temporarily banned from the Nintendo eShop, and also from the entire country of South Korea. Unlike Balatro, Sunshine Shuffle actually is a poker game, except you’re playing Texas Hold ‘Em — again for no real money — with cute animals (who are bank robbers).It’s common sense that children shouldn’t be able to access apps that allow them to gamble. But none of these games contain actual gambling — or do they?Where do we draw the line? Is it gambling to play any game that is also played in casinos, like poker or blackjack? Is it gambling to play a game that evokes the aesthetics of a casino, like cards, chips, dice, or slot machines? Is it gambling to wager or earn fictional money?Gaming has always been a lightning rod for controversy. Sex, violence, misogyny, addiction — you name it, video games have been accused of perpetrating or encouraging it. But gambling is gaming’s original sin. And it’s the one we still can’t get a grip on.The original link between gambling and gamingGetty ImagesThe association between video games and gambling all goes back to pinball. Back in the ’30s and ’40s, politicians targeted pinball machines for promoting gambling. Early pinball machines were less skill-based (they didn’t have flippers), and some gave cash payouts, so the comparison wasn’t unfair. Famously, mob-hating New York City mayor Fiorello LaGuardia banned pinball in the city, and appeared in a newsreel dumping pinball and slot machines into the Long Island Sound. Pinball machines spent some time relegated to the back rooms of sex shops and dive bars. But after some lobbying, the laws relaxed.By the 1970s, pinball manufacturers were also making video games, and the machines were side-by-side in arcades. Arcade machines, like pinball, took small coin payments, repeatedly, for short rounds of play. The disreputable funk of pinball basically rubbed off onto video games.Ever since video games rocked onto the scene, concerned and sometimes uneducated parties have been asking if they’re dangerous. And in general, studies have shown that they’re not. The same can’t be said about gambling — the practice of putting real money down to bet on an outcome.It’s a golden age for gambling2025 in the USA is a great time for gambling, which has been really profitable for gambling companies — to the tune of $66.5 billion dollars of revenue in 2023.To put this number in perspective, the American Gaming Association, which is the casino industry’s trade group and has nothing to do with video games, reports that 2022’s gambling revenue was $60.5 billion. It went up $6 billion in a year.And this increase isn’t just because of sportsbooks, although sports betting is a huge part of it. Online casinos and brick-and-mortar casinos are both earning more, and as a lot of people have pointed out, gambling is being normalized to a pretty disturbing degree.Much like with alcohol, for a small percentage of people, gambling can tip from occasional leisure activity into addiction. The people who are most at risk are, by and large, already vulnerable: researchers at the Yale School of Medicine found that 96% of problem gamblers are also wrestling with other disorders, such as “substance use, impulse-control disorders, mood disorders, and anxiety disorders.”Even if you’re not in that group, there are still good reasons to be wary of gambling. People tend to underestimate their own vulnerability to things they know are dangerous for others. Someone else might bet beyond their means. But I would simply know when to stop.Maybe you do! But being blithely confident about it can make it hard to notice if you do develop a problem. Or if you already have one.Addiction changes the way your brain works. When you’re addicted to something, your participation in it becomes compulsive, at the expense of other interests and responsibilities. Someone might turn to their addiction to self-soothe when depressed or anxious. And speaking of those feelings, people who are depressed and anxious are already more vulnerable to addiction. Given the entire state of the world right now, this predisposition shines an ugly light on the numbers touted by the AGA. Is it good that the industry is reporting $6 billion in additional earnings, when the economy feels so frail, when the stock market is ping ponging through highs and lows daily, when daily expenses are rising? It doesn’t feel good. In 2024, the YouTuber Drew Gooden turned his critical eye to online gambling. One of the main points he makes in his excellent video is that gambling is more accessible than ever. It’s on all our phones, and betting companies are using decades of well-honed app design and behavioral studies to manipulate users to spend and spend.Meanwhile, advertising on podcasts, billboards, TV, radio, and websites – it’s literally everywhere — tells you that this is fun, and you don’t even need to know what you’re doing, and you’re probably one bet away from winning back those losses.Where does Luck Be a Landlord come into this?So, are there gambling themes in Luck Be A Landlord? The game’s slot machine is represented in simple pixel art. You pay one coin to use it, and among the more traditional slot machine symbols are silly ones like a snail that only pays out after 4 spins.When I started playing it, my primary emotion wasn’t necessarily elation at winning coins — it was stress and disbelief when, in the third round of the game, the landlord increased my rent by 100%. What the hell.I don’t doubt that getting better at it would produce dopamine thrills akin to gambling — or playing any video game. But it’s supposed to be difficult, because that’s the joke. If you beat the game you unlock more difficulty modes where, as you keep paying rent, your landlord gets furious, and starts throwing made-up rules at you: previously rare symbols will give you less of a payout, and the very mechanics of the slot machine change.It’s a manifestation of the golden rule of casinos, and all of capitalism writ large: the odds are stacked against you. The house always wins. There is luck involved, to be sure, but because Luck Be A Landlord is a deck-builder, knowing the different ways you can design your slot machine to maximize payouts is a skill! You have some influence over it, unlike a real slot machine. The synergies that I’ve seen high-level players create are completely nuts, and obviously based on a deep understanding of the strategies the game allows.IMAGE: TrampolineTales via PolygonBalatro and Luck Be a Landlord both distance themselves from casino gambling again in the way they treat money. In Landlord, the money you earn is gold coins, not any currency we recognize. And the payouts aren’t actually that big. By the end of the core game, the rent money you’re struggling and scraping to earn… is 777 coins. In the post-game endless mode, payouts can get massive. But the thing is, to get this far, you can’t rely on chance. You have to be very good at Luck Be a Landlord.And in Balatro, the numbers that get big are your points. The actual dollar payments in a round of Balatro are small. These aren’t games about earning wads and wads of cash. So, do these count as “gambling themes”?We’ll come back to that question later. First, I want to talk about a closer analog to what we colloquially consider gambling: loot boxes and gacha games.Random rewards: from Overwatch to the rise of gachaRecently, I did something that I haven’t done in a really long time: I thought about Overwatch. I used to play Overwatch with my friends, and I absolutely made a habit of dropping 20 bucks here or there for a bunch of seasonal loot boxes. This was never a problem behavior for me, but in hindsight, it does sting that over a couple of years, I dropped maybe $150 on cosmetics for a game that now I primarily associate with squandered potential.Loot boxes grew out of free-to-play mobile games, where they’re the primary method of monetization. In something like Overwatch, they functioned as a way to earn additional revenue in an ongoing game, once the player had already dropped 40 bucks to buy it.More often than not, loot boxes are a random selection of skins and other cosmetics, but games like Star Wars: Battlefront 2 were famously criticized for launching with loot crates that essentially made it pay-to-win – if you bought enough of them and got lucky.It’s not unprecedented to associate loot boxes with gambling. A 2021 study published in Addictive Behaviors showed that players who self-reported as problem gamblers also tended to spend more on loot boxes, and another study done in the UK found a similar correlation with young adults.While Overwatch certainly wasn’t the first game to feature cosmetic loot boxes or microtransactions, it’s a reference point for me, and it also got attention worldwide. In 2018, Overwatch was investigated by the Belgian Gaming Commission, which found it “in violation of gambling legislation” alongside FIFA 18 and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. Belgium’s response was to ban the sale of loot boxes without a gambling license. Having a paid random rewards mechanic in a game is a criminal offense there. But not really. A 2023 study showed that 82% of iPhone games sold on the App Store in Belgium still use random paid monetization, as do around 80% of games that are rated 12+. The ban wasn’t effectively enforced, if at all, and the study recommends that a blanket ban wouldn’t actually be a practical solution anyway.Overwatch was rated T for Teen by the ESRB, and 12 by PEGI. When it first came out, its loot boxes were divisive. Since the mechanic came from F2P mobile games, which are often seen as predatory, people balked at seeing it in a big action game from a multi-million dollar publisher.At the time, the rebuttal was, “Well, at least it’s just cosmetics.” Nobody needs to buy loot boxes to be good at Overwatch.A lot has changed since 2016. Now we have a deeper understanding of how these mechanics are designed to manipulate players, even if they don’t affect gameplay. But also, they’ve been normalized. While there will always be people expressing disappointment when a AAA game has a paid random loot mechanic, it is no longer shocking.And if anything, these mechanics have only become more prevalent, thanks to the growth of gacha games. Gacha is short for “gachapon,” the Japanese capsule machines where you pay to receive one of a selection of random toys. Getty ImagesIn gacha games, players pay — not necessarily real money, but we’ll get to that — for a chance to get something. Maybe it’s a character, or a special weapon, or some gear — it depends on the game. Whatever it is, within that context, it’s desirable — and unlike the cosmetics of Overwatch, gacha pulls often do impact the gameplay.For example, in Infinity Nikki, you can pull for clothing items in these limited-time events. You have a chance to get pieces of a five-star outfit. But you also might pull one of a set of four-star items, or a permanent three-star piece. Of course, if you want all ten pieces of the five-star outfit, you have to do multiple pulls, each costing a handful of limited resources that you can earn in-game or purchase with money.Gacha was a fixture of mobile gaming for a long time, but in recent years, we’ve seen it go AAA, and global. MiHoYo’s Genshin Impact did a lot of that work when it came out worldwide on consoles and PC alongside its mobile release. Genshin and its successors are massive AAA games of a scale that, for your Nintendos and Ubisofts, would necessitate selling a bajillion copies to be a success. And they’re free.Genshin is an action game, whose playstyle changes depending on what character you’re playing — characters you get from gacha pulls, of course. In Zenless Zone Zero, the characters you can pull have different combo patterns, do different kinds of damage, and just feel different to play. And whereas in an early mobile gacha game like Love Nikki Dress UP! Queen the world was rudimentary, its modern descendant Infinity Nikki is, like Genshin, Breath of the Wild-esque. It is a massive open world, with collectibles and physics puzzles, platforming challenges, and a surprisingly involved storyline. Genshin Impact was the subject of an interesting study where researchers asked young adults in Hong Kong to self-report on their gacha spending habits. They found that, like with gambling, players who are not feeling good tend to spend more. “Young adult gacha gamers experiencing greater stress and anxiety tend to spend more on gacha purchases, have more motives for gacha purchases, and participate in more gambling activities,” they wrote. “This group is at a particularly higher risk of becoming problem gamblers.”One thing that is important to note is that Genshin Impact came out in 2020. The study was self-reported, and it was done during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic. It was a time when people were experiencing a lot of stress, and also fewer options to relieve that stress. We were all stuck inside gaming.But the fact that stress can make people more likely to spend money on gacha shows that while the gacha model isn’t necessarily harmful to everyone, it is exploitative to everyone. Since I started writing this story, another self-reported study came out in Japan, where 18.8% of people in their 20s say they’ve spent money on gacha rather than on things like food or rent.Following Genshin Impact’s release, MiHoYo put out Honkai: Star Rail and Zenless Zone Zero. All are shiny, big-budget games that are free to play, but dangle the lure of making just one purchase in front of the player. Maybe you could drop five bucks on a handful of in-game currency to get one more pull. Or maybe just this month you’ll get the second tier of rewards on the game’s equivalent of a Battle Pass. The game is free, after all — but haven’t you enjoyed at least ten dollars’ worth of gameplay? Image: HoyoverseI spent most of my December throwing myself into Infinity Nikki. I had been so stressed, and the game was so soothing. I logged in daily to fulfill my daily wishes and earn my XP, diamonds, Threads of Purity, and bling. I accumulated massive amounts of resources. I haven’t spent money on the game. I’m trying not to, and so far, it’s been pretty easy. I’ve been super happy with how much stuff I can get for free, and how much I can do! I actually feel really good about that — which is what I said to my boyfriend, and he replied, “Yeah, that’s the point. That’s how they get you.”And he’s right. Currently, Infinity Nikki players are embroiled in a war with developer Infold, after Infold introduced yet another currency type with deep ties to Nikki’s gacha system. Every one of these gacha games has its own tangled system of overlapping currencies. Some can only be used on gacha pulls. Some can only be used to upgrade items. Many of them can be purchased with human money.Image: InFold Games/Papergames via PolygonAll of this adds up. According to Sensor Towers’ data, Genshin Impact earned over 36 million dollars on mobile alone in a single month of 2024. I don’t know what Dan DiIorio’s peak monthly revenue for Luck Be A Landlord was, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t that.A lot of the spending guardrails we see in games like these are actually the result of regulations in other territories, especially China, where gacha has been a big deal for a lot longer. For example, gacha games have a daily limit on loot boxes, with the number clearly displayed, and a system collectively called “pity,” where getting the banner item is guaranteed after a certain number of pulls. Lastly, developers have to be clear about what the odds are. When I log in to spend the Revelation Crystals I’ve spent weeks hoarding in my F2P Infinity Nikki experience, I know that I have a 1.5% chance of pulling a 5-star piece, and that the odds can go up to 6.06%, and that I am guaranteed to get one within 20 pulls, because of the pity system.So, these odds are awful. But it is not as merciless as sitting down at a Vegas slot machine, an experience best described as “oh… that’s it?”There’s not a huge philosophical difference between buying a pack of loot boxes in Overwatch, a pull in Genshin Impact, or even a booster of Pokémon cards. You put in money, you get back randomized stuff that may or may not be what you want. In the dictionary definition, it’s a gamble. But unlike the slot machine, it’s not like you’re trying to win money by doing it, unless you’re selling those Pokémon cards, which is a topic for another time.But since even a game where you don’t get anything, like Balatro or Luck Be A Landlord, can come under fire for promoting gambling to kids, it would seem appropriate for app stores and ratings boards to take a similarly hardline stance with gacha.Instead, all these games are rated T for Teen by the ESRB, and PEGI 12 in the EU.The ESRB ratings for these games note that they contain in-game purchases, including random items. Honkai: Star Rail’s rating specifically calls out a slot machine mechanic, where players spend tokens to win a prize. But other than calling out Honkai’s slot machine, app stores are not slapping Genshin or Nikki with an 18+ rating. Meanwhile, Balatro had a PEGI rating of 18 until a successful appeal in February 2025, and Luck Be a Landlord is still 17+ on Apple’s App Store.Nobody knows what they’re doingWhen I started researching this piece, I felt very strongly that it was absurd that Luck Be A Landlord and Balatro had age ratings this high.I still believe that the way both devs have been treated by ratings boards is bad. Threatening an indie dev with a significant loss of income by pulling their game is bad, not giving them a way to defend themself or help them understand why it’s happening is even worse. It’s an extension of the general way that too-big-to-fail companies like Google treat all their customers.DiIorio told me that while it felt like a human being had at least looked at Luck Be A Landlord to make the determination that it contained gambling themes, the emails he was getting were automatic, and he doesn’t have a contact at Google to ask why this happened or how he can avoid it in the future — an experience that will be familiar to anyone who has ever needed Google support. But what’s changed for me is that I’m not actually sure anymore that games that don’t have gambling should be completely let off the hook for evoking gambling.Exposing teens to simulated gambling without financial stakes could spark an interest in the real thing later on, according to a study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health. It’s the same reason you can’t mosey down to the drug store to buy candy cigarettes. Multiple studies were done that showed kids who ate candy cigarettes were more likely to take up smoking (of course, the candy is still available — just without the “cigarette” branding.)So while I still think rating something like Balatro 18+ is nuts, I also think that describing it appropriately might be reasonable. As a game, it’s completely divorced from literally any kind of play you would find in a casino — but I can see the concern that the thrill of flashy numbers and the shiny cards might encourage young players to try their hand at poker in a real casino, where a real house can take their money.Maybe what’s more important than doling out high age ratings is helping people think about how media can affect us. In the same way that, when I was 12 and obsessed with The Matrix, my parents gently made sure that I knew that none of the violence was real and you can’t actually cartwheel through a hail of bullets in real life. Thanks, mom and dad!But that’s an answer that’s a lot more abstract and difficult to implement than a big red 18+ banner. When it comes to gacha, I think we’re even less equipped to talk about these game mechanics, and I’m certain they’re not being age-rated appropriately. On the one hand, like I said earlier, gacha exploits the player’s desire for stuff that they are heavily manipulated to buy with real money. On the other hand, I think it’s worth acknowledging that there is a difference between gacha and casino gambling.Problem gamblers aren’t satisfied by winning — the thing they’re addicted to is playing, and the risk that comes with it. In gacha games, players do report satisfaction when they achieve the prize they set out to get. And yes, in the game’s next season, the developer will be dangling a shiny new prize in front of them with the goal of starting the cycle over. But I think it’s fair to make the distinction, while still being highly critical of the model.And right now, there is close to no incentive for app stores to crack down on gacha in any way. They get a cut of in-app purchases. Back in 2023, miHoYo tried a couple of times to set up payment systems that circumvented Apple’s 30% cut of in-app spending. Both times, it was thwarted by Apple, whose App Store generated $1.1 trillion in developer billings and sales in 2022.According to Apple itself, 90% of that money did not include any commission to Apple. Fortunately for Apple, ten percent of a trillion dollars is still one hundred billion dollars, which I would also like to have in my bank account. Apple has zero reason to curb spending on games that have been earning millions of dollars every month for years.And despite the popularity of Luck Be A Landlord and Balatro’s massive App Store success, these games will never be as lucrative. They’re one-time purchases, and they don’t have microtransactions. To add insult to injury, like most popular games, Luck Be A Landlord has a lot of clones. And from what I can tell, it doesn’t look like any of them have been made to indicate that their games contain the dreaded “gambling themes” that Google was so worried about in Landlord.In particular, a game called SpinCraft: Roguelike from Sneaky Panda Games raised $6 million in seed funding for “inventing the Luck-Puzzler genre,” which it introduced in 2022, while Luck Be A Landlord went into early access in 2021.It’s free-to-play, has ads and in-app purchases, looks like Fisher Price made a slot machine, and it’s rated E for everyone, with no mention of gambling imagery in its rating. I reached out to the developers to ask if they had also been contacted by the Play Store to disclose that their game has gambling themes, but I haven’t heard back.Borrowing mechanics in games is as old as time, and it’s something I in no way want to imply shouldn’t happen because copyright is the killer of invention — but I think we can all agree that the system is broken.There is no consistency in how games with random chance are treated. We still do not know how to talk about gambling, or gambling themes, and at the end of the day, the results of this are the same: the house always wins.See More:
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