poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 I was listening to Brian Shea's Zelda series recap podcast and thought dang, I really like this. I remember the split timeline being a big point of contention when Nintendo first announced it. And the second split into a THIRD timeline was also fun to witness. It makes sense to me that Ocarina was such a pivotal moment in time that it could spawn multiple possible realities. Shea said something like is there a timeline where a simple bokoblin killed Link? Probably! I'd love to see that timeline. I hope they make it even more crazy. I haven't seen where Echoes of Wisdom lives, but I hope it's super weird. Also! Apparently the Ganon at the end of Wind Waker is gone-gone. What a cool way to go. Probably my favorite ending of any Zelda game. Anyway I sure would like to read y'alls thoughts on whether the split timelines are good or not, and of course thoughts on the timelines themselves  blueredandgold Member Oct 25, 2017 8,679 Quick question off the top - that image was only ever sighted at PAX Aus correct?   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 blueredandgold said: Quick question off the top - that image was only ever sighted at PAX Aus correct? Click to expand... Click to shrink... As far as I know, yeah. I'm not sure if it's official official.   Stencil Mailing His Own Damn Business Member Oct 30, 2017 13,549 USA There was ONE brief moment where I sort of bothered to think about it -- hard enough to mentally map each game I'd played into it -- and it amounted to an entire "Huh, that's kind of neat" and I immediately moved on and never thought about it again. I don't think Nintendo even really cares that much about it, therefore it's not a topic of discussion I ever engage in. I feel like it's such an obvious afterthought. If the creators don't care why would I?  StephenNotStrange Member Jan 16, 2019 784 blueredandgold said: Quick question off the top - that image was only ever sighted at PAX Aus correct? Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, but a very similar one which show where BotW and TotK is already on the Zelda's JP website long ago.  Sandstar Member Oct 28, 2017 8,165 I guess the part I don't like is that the original legend of zelda is from the "bad" timeline.   Walpurgisnacht Member May 7, 2020 1,724 I think the only people that get super passionate and heated and can never shut up about it are timeline-haters. Aside from that it's fine. It's something Miyamoto and Aonuma have been alluding to in interviews since the 90's.  Cheesy Member Oct 30, 2017 2,565 I feel like it doesn't really add anything and I honestly forget it exists most of the time.   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 Has anyone read the manga series? Does it go into timeline split shenanigans?   RagnarokX Member Oct 26, 2017 17,710 I wouldn't call it convoluted. Before BotW only like 3 games didn't fit nicely. I never got why people act like you have to put effort to understand it and got so heated at anyone discussing it. What we had before is certainly preferable to the irreverent JJ Abrams mystery box style they're going for now with BotW where they can't even keep things coherent between direct sequels.   EllipsisBreak One Winged Slayer Member Aug 6, 2019 2,274 poptire said: Has anyone read the manga series? Does it go into timeline split shenanigans? Click to expand... Click to shrink... I'm no expert, but I've seen some images of the Twilight Princess one and it's definitely a factor there.   Zyrokai Member Nov 1, 2017 5,214 Columbus, Ohio I love it.   PAFenix Unshakable Resolve Member Nov 21, 2019 20,137 I love it! poptire said: Has anyone read the manga series? Does it go into timeline split shenanigans? Click to expand... Click to shrink... The bits I read of the old manga kinda goes into each game as it's own separate one-off or story. But most of those were, at the most, 2 volumes. Dunno about the Twilight Princess manga, since that actually goes up to ELEVEN. I wouldn't be surprised if it does make hints towards it, because of the Hero Shade.  Tom Nook Says... Member Jan 15, 2019 7,406 The fact that Nintendo themselves don't care a whole lot about it is what makes it fun. The holes and loose connections are where the theorizing happens. If it was overly-detailed and concrete there wouldn't be much to talk about.   The Adder Member Oct 25, 2017 20,609 It's legitimately fun to talk about and piece together. Especially when you think of it from the perspective that Nintendo themselves don't make games based on where they want to fill in the timeline, but make the game they want and then figure out what to do about placement. That makes theorizing so much more fun because it could still be liquid even after release.   Angst Member Oct 27, 2017 4,306 I think it sucks and choose to ignore it.   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 EllipsisBreak said: I'm no expert, but I've seen some images of the Twilight Princess one and it's definitely a factor there. Click to expand... Click to shrink... PAFenix said: I love it! The bits I read of the old manga kinda goes into each game as it's own separate one-off or story. But most of those were, at the most, 2 volumes. Dunno about the Twilight Princess manga, since that actually goes up to ELEVEN. I wouldn't be surprised if it does make hints towards it, because of the Hero Shade. Click to expand... Click to shrink... The Hero Shade stuff is super interesting to me. That's Adult Link from OoT, right? Except he's all messed up and battle scarred. I'd like to see that story   Rockodile Member Dec 7, 2018 1,256 I think it's pretty fun, and it's easy to ignore if you don't care. Don't understand why some people get so pissed off about it.   SupersonicHypertonic Member Apr 20, 2022 3,530 Yeah I really like it in theory but over the years it's it's kinda just there and Nintendo didn't utilise it properly. There's 3 lines but in practice there's very little actual reasons to games within the same line. MM and TP are in the same line but there's very little convergence for them, the hero shade was never confirmed in game to be the hero time and even after it was in Historia it still doesn't explain what happened to Link after MM. For all we know he had another adventure in Disney world in between lol. In the downfall line a lot of the games repeat the same story of Ganon being resurrected in the same as if no one learns the lesson to fully kill him for good. I wish games had stronger connections to one another without needing direct sequels. My biggest peeve is Nintendo tried to be clever with the creation of downfall timeline but they fucked everything up instead. If a time like can be created because Link dies then literally EVERY SINGLE GAME has at least 2 endings - Link lives and saves the world continuing the same line or Link dies and Ganon wins or someone else seals him which creates a 2nd parallel line. Now with BOTW and TOTK it seems it's a reboot which basically creates a multiverse now. Or knowing Nintendo they'll somehow fit in a really awkward way.  Aiqops Uncle Works at Nintendo Member Aug 3, 2021 19,387 Couldn't care less about trying to find connections between the games. To me they are all standalone.   EllipsisBreak One Winged Slayer Member Aug 6, 2019 2,274 poptire said: The Hero Shade stuff is super interesting to me. That's Adult Link from OoT, right? Except he's all messed up and battle scarred. I'd like to see that story Click to expand... Click to shrink... I don't have all the context, but... yeah. This is a thing.   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 SupersonicHypertonic said: Yeah I really like it in theory but over the years it's it's kinda just there and Nintendo didn't utilise it properly. There's 3 lines but in practice there's very little actual reasons to games within the same line. MM and TP are in the same line but there's very little convergence for them, the hero shade was never confirmed in game to be the hero time and even after it was in Historia it still doesn't explain what happened to Link after MM. For all we know he had another adventure in Disney world in between lol. In the downfall line a lot of the games repeat the same story of Ganon being resurrected in the same as if no one learns the lesson to fully kill him for good. I wish games had stronger connections to one another without needing direct sequels. My biggest peeve is Nintendo tried to be clever with the creation of downfall timeline but they fucked everything up instead. If a time like can be created because Link dies then literally EVERY SINGLE GAME has at least 2 endings - Link lives and saves the world continuing the same line or Link dies and Ganon wins or someone else seals him which creates a 2nd parallel line. Now with BOTW and TOTK it seems it's a reboot which basically creates a multiverse now. Or knowing Nintendo they'll somehow fit in a really awkward way. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I completely understand the frustration. I like to believe the OoT split happened because that singular moment in time was special. Like how Doc Brown believes there's something about November 5, 1955 that makes it cosmically important.   Richietto One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 26,072 North Carolina I love the Zelda timeline and talking about it and fuck the haters. There IS a timeline no matter how much you don't like it it's fun and I like fun. Same reason I fuckin love Kingdom Hearts. There's just so much to talk about when a new game hits.   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 EllipsisBreak said: I don't have all the context, but... yeah. This is a thing. Click to expand... Click to shrink... That rules regardless of the context   Ashes of Dreams Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve Member May 22, 2020 19,693 I used to be VERY into the Zelda timeline and lore talk. This was mostly pre-Historia though, where the only evidence we had were from the games themselves and a few random interviews and developer comments. Like we'd known since way back that the ending of OoT depicted a split timeline and they confirmed on Twilight Princess' release that it was on the timeline opposite of Wind Waker. But how it all connected was more up in the air and the games often had hints like suggesting how the Temple of Time was over time overgrown and fallen apart in TP, suggesting an in-between state of OoT and ALttP. Hyrule Historia changed things. I thought it was a bit of a cop-out to shove all the old games without much story into a new third timeline. It clearly wasn't the intention when those games were made. But it was still mostly fine. I was still into it because it at least meant that they were going to open themselves up to interacting with the timeline more in the future. Now that it was set in stone, we could play with it... And then they just threw it all away one game later. I cannot stand the whole "well, Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are their own thing" angle. Especially when those games are FILLED with references and call-backs to prior games. They want to have their cake and eat it too with this stuff but in my view it's completely undermined any legitimacy the timeline could have had. They clearly don't care. So, I'm kinda out now. Which hurts to say because this stuff really mattered to me when I was younger. But the series has just gone in a direction away from me in so many ways nowadays.  Soapbox Member Oct 28, 2017 33,865 I adore it and have wild thoughts and ideas about all the different options, mainly how Skyward Sword has at least 3 time line splints unto itself. The robots from another timeline with the time shift stones are probably from the future and not the past. Also they make another timeline when they defeat The Imprisoned in the future then go back in time and defeat Demise.  J_ToSaveTheDay "This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance Avenger Oct 25, 2017 22,546 USA It's a fun and weird thing for Nintendo to put together and to think about as a fan, but it's not a point of importance to my personal enjoyment of the franchise.   Chemo Member Oct 28, 2017 1,283 No.   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 Ashes of Dreams said: I used to be VERY into the Zelda timeline and lore talk. This was mostly pre-Historia though, where the only evidence we had were from the games themselves and a few random interviews and developer comments. Like we'd known since way back that the ending of OoT depicted a split timeline and they confirmed on Twilight Princess' release that it was on the timeline opposite of Wind Waker. But how it all connected was more up in the air and the games often had hints like suggesting how the Temple of Time was over time overgrown and fallen apart in TP, suggesting an in-between state of OoT and ALttP. Hyrule Historia changed things. I thought it was a bit of a cop-out to shove all the old games without much story into a new third timeline. It clearly wasn't the intention when those games were made. But it was still mostly fine. I was still into it because it at least meant that they were going to open themselves up to interacting with the timeline more in the future. Now that it was set in stone, we could play with it... And then they just threw it all away one game later. I cannot stand the whole "well, Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are their own thing" angle. Especially when those games are FILLED with references and call-backs to prior games. They want to have their cake and eat it too with this stuff but in my view it's completely undermined any legitimacy the timeline could have had. They clearly don't care. So, I'm kinda out now. Which hurts to say because this stuff really mattered to me when I was younger. But the series has just gone in a direction away from me in so many ways nowadays. Click to expand... Click to shrink... My hope is that either this movie (possible trilogy?) coming out they'll finally start to make a concrete timeline that, I PRAY, is still insane.   eamono Member Nov 17, 2020 341 honestly I always thought that the 3d games have a coherent timeline and they kinda mucked it up by jamming the 2d games in. I'm down for some timeline discussion but I think some of the games like zelda 2 or the capcom ones just kinda obviously werent made with the timeline in mind and its just kinda not fun to discuss. its very telling that the "hero fails" timeline off OOT is just filled with the games that dont actually fit in the 2 that make sense the 3d games for sure have an intended timeline though, and every question about how BOTW being at the end of both child and adult timelines could easily be fixed with a lore dump or a new game  JasperMyst Powered by Friendship™ Member Sep 25, 2023 805 If it means we get creative stuff like tears of the kingdom and majoras mask I'm all for it. Actually thanks for reminding me starting Majora's Mask for the vibes.  Giga Man One Winged Slayer Member Oct 27, 2017 23,197 I thought it was weird Nintendo would put one out in the first place, but nowadays, I don't really care. I thought Nintendo had abandoned it anyway.   Grunty Member Oct 28, 2017 10,029 Gruntilda’s Lair I LOVE the timeline and think it's mostly pretty straight forward. It's not really complicated. The one thing I look forward to anytime a new Zelda game is its timeline placement. I get so much more enjoyment out of the games thanks to it. Also, don't want to spoil Echoes of Wisdom for anyone, but its placement and how a portion of the story of that game answers something about the timeline that was never really being asked to begin with was really darn cool. Something new to think about now when playing the games, particularly Ocarina of Time.  Houtarou Oreki Member Dec 31, 2021 99 poptire said: I hope they make it even more crazy. I haven't seen where Echoes of Wisdom lives, but I hope it's super weird. Click to expand... Click to shrink... According to the official Zelda site, they put it in the Hero Defeated branch, just after Tri-Force Heroes and before the big gap leading to the original NES Zelda. HISTORY | Zelda Portal | Nintendo Introducing the history of Hyrule, the setting for The Legend of the Zelda series. www.nintendo.com   JasperMyst Powered by Friendship™ Member Sep 25, 2023 805 Giga Man said: I thought it was weird Nintendo would put one out in the first place, but nowadays, I don't really care. I thought Nintendo had abandoned it anyway. Click to expand... Click to shrink... They haven't which is quite hilarious but I'll take it 😂   Neutron Member Jun 2, 2022 3,531 Sandstar said: I guess the part I don't like is that the original legend of zelda is from the "bad" timeline. Click to expand... Click to shrink... I agree - although not so much about the idea of a "bad timeline", but just that it kinda makes it... non-canonical? Link could fail at any point, creating other failure timelines. So why is this one somehow a "real" timeline and not just a what-if like any other point of failure?  Sandstar Member Oct 28, 2017 8,165 Neutron said: I agree - although not so much about the idea of a "bad timeline", but just that it kinda makes it... non-canonical? Link could fail at any point, creating other failure timelines. So why is this one somehow a "real" timeline and not just a what-if like any other point of failure? Click to expand... Click to shrink... Yeah, i guess that's what I mean, it's non-canon. It just kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  SupersonicHypertonic Member Apr 20, 2022 3,530 poptire said: I completely understand the frustration. I like to believe the OoT split happened because that singular moment in time was special. Like how Doc Brown believes there's something about November 5, 1955 that makes it cosmically important. Click to expand... Click to shrink... That could be a solution why OoT creates a split but since there isn't a reason you could easily argue other games are special and could/should timelines. SS has stupid time travel at the end where Link destroys the present imprisoned (AKA Demise) using the Triforce but also goes back in time to destroy Demise.....so how can the present imprisoned exist? Surely that could create 2 timelines (or 3 if Link dies) especially as this Link is the first to use the Triforce and this Zelda is the direct reincarnation of Hylia so they should have special privileges. Zelda team needs a few people to say the very least get the skeleton of the timeline to make sense and not contradict itself at times.  Last edited: Yesterday at 10:03 PM StraySheep It's Pronounced "Aerith" Member Oct 26, 2017 9,157 Rockodile said: I think it's pretty fun, and it's easy to ignore if you don't care. Don't understand why some people get so pissed off about it. Click to expand... Click to shrink... Same  OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 A good way to "fix" the timeline(s) is to say it's all based on in-continuity folklore and hearsay, so any errors or impossibilities it has are entirely man-made, as the citizens of Hyrule who are trying to figure it out also don't really know.   WhiteRabbitEXE Member Oct 25, 2017 15,094 Arizona Literally my only issue is the failed hero timeline. It's just so, so silly. But whatever, it's not a big deal lol   Jane Member Oct 17, 2018 1,626 The problem isn't the complexity. The problem is that Nintendo clearly didn't give a fuck about the lore being consistent or the stories connecting outside of direct sequels when they made the games, but they're now trying to pretend after the fact that it's all connected. The "doomed" timeline has never been hinted at and came out of nowhere.   Berordn One Winged Slayer Member Oct 26, 2017 10,711 NoVA poptire said: A good way to "fix" the timeline(s) is to say it's all based on in-continuity folklore and hearsay, so any errors or impossibilities it has are entirely man-made, as the citizens of Hyrule who are trying to figure it out also don't really know. Click to expand... Click to shrink... this has always been how i've viewed it the timelines existing is whatever, but the actual games are retellings and reinterpretations of legends and i think that's more fun than having a strictly true history to look at  Boopers Member Nov 1, 2020 4,358 Vermont usa I came in here to endorse Tingle, and the poll choices did not leave me disappointed. 🫡   OP OP poptire Avatar Wrecking Crew The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 15,552 Berordn said: this has always been how i've viewed it the timelines existing is whatever, but the actual games are retellings and reinterpretations of legends and i think that's more fun than having a strictly true history to look at Click to expand... Click to shrink... This kinda thing has always been enjoyable to me. And it can explain away literally any holes in any story. The magic bullet / infinite crutch of storytelling. George RR Martin should take notes. Boopers said: I came in here to endorse Tingle, and the poll choices did not leave me disappointed. 🫡 Click to expand... Click to shrink... Tingle Team represent  Servbot24 The Fallen Oct 25, 2017 47,579 It's fine. I don't really want a precise timeline of events. General allusions to a mystical history is better.   TheNormalMan Member Oct 27, 2017 149 Los Angeles, CA I love it and have always loved it. I never understood why people hated on it so much. You can just ignore it. When they revealed the downfall timeline in HH I thought it genius. It essentially established a way to justify any storyline moving forward. It also gave people more to talk about. And adjust their theories. There are still plenty of mysteries in the timeline—particularly in the BOTW/TotK area. I know they separated them but they can always add to it. Also, I know they never go into games with story in mind, but eventually the mechanics of a game might sync of pretty well with a specific area of the timeline. I love story heavy Zelda's. They don't all need to be that way but variety is the spice of life.  Hambulance Member Oct 30, 2017 2,296 I am ready for Into the Zeldaverse   Lump One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 18,210 It does nothing for me, but I do highly enjoy watching others try and piece together the timeline, it is like watching non-problematic flat earth discourse from afar.   Tathanen One Winged Slayer Member Oct 25, 2017 7,176 WhiteRabbitEXE said: Literally my only issue is the failed hero timeline. It's just so, so silly. But whatever, it's not a big deal lol Click to expand... Click to shrink... It's weird and I'm not a huge fan, they had to contend with the fact that while there are multiple timelines the LTTP branch is a separate canon, not a timeline. So I can understand the logic of basing it on a What If scenario, particularly since OOT kinda straddles the two. In their shoes tho I'd have probably just called those games "old legends of Hyrule" or something and not tried to draw a line between them and the rest. To the thread question: yes the timeline is my life. 

Macworld Super-weird bugs in Messages are nothing new, but this latest one is a real head-scratcher: If you try to send an audio message with the phrase “Dave and Buster’s,” it won’t work. Why would that specific phrasing cause a problem? A coding expert has cracked the case. I won’t say “and the reason will shock you,” but if you’re anything like me, you’ll find it interesting. First, let me explain what happens when the bug triggers. At first, the audio message (“I’m off to eat lunch at Dave and Buster’s,” as an example) appears to send normally. It shows up in the Messages thread to the recipient, along with a transcript of the content. No problem is flagged. It’s at the recipient’s end that we spot the issue. Initially the recipient sees the ellipsis icon, indicating that something is being typed or sent… but this carries on, and carries on, and eventually disappears. And at this point there is no indication that anything has been sent at all: no message, no message transcript, no message failed notification. In fact, if the recipient didn’t happen to have the app open, or had it open but was in a different conversation thread, they never would have known something was supposed to be on the way. This bug is new to me, and the first time I heard about it was when it was discussed on Monday in the blog run by Guilherme Rambo, a coding and engineering expert. Rambo, in turn, heard about the bug on the Search Engine podcast, which devoted its May 9 episode to the subject. Rambo reproduced the bug, guessed the problem must be at the recipient end, then plugged that device into his Mac and started looking at logs. And from that point it doesn’t appear to have taken long for him to work out what was going on: iOS’s transcription engine was recognizing the name of the U.S. restaurant chain, changing it to the correct corporate branding (“Dave & Buster’s,” with an all-important ampersand), and then passing that into the XHTML code used to send a transcript with the audio message. The problem isn’t being caused by the words Dave and Buster’s, but by the ampersand character between them, which has a special purpose in coding and prevents the code from being parsed correctly. The phrase “Dave and Buster’s” doesn’t cause a problem in the U.K. because iOS doesn’t add an ampersand (or even an apostrophe).David Price / Foundry As you can see in the image at the top of this story, a seemingly successfully sent audio iMessage ending with the phrase “Dave & Buster’s” appears as sent but never actually appears on the recipient’s phone. After a while, the audio message disappeared from the sender’s phone, and the recipient was completely unaware that the message had ever been sent. With that in mind, it’s a short leap to recognize that other brands could cause the same issue—they just haven’t been spotted doing so up to now. Rambo notes that “M&Ms” will do the same thing. For U.K. iPhone owners, in fact, “Dave and Buster’s” doesn’t trigger the bug because that chain is evidently not well enough known here and doesn’t get its ampersand added by autocorrect. To reproduce the issue, I had to ask a friend to send me a message about the supermarket chain M&S. Sure enough, this caused the hanging ellipsis followed by an unsent message. At the time of writing, it seems almost certain that any phrase iOS would recognize as containing an ampersand would cause an audio message to fail, and when I put it like that, it’s surprising the bug hasn’t been more widely reported. But here’s what happens when a U.K. user tries to send a message about the supermarket chain M&S, complete with ampersand.Karen Haslam / Foundry On the plus side, one would imagine it’s a bug that should be easy to patch in an iOS update. The transcription feature in Messages simply needs to be told to “escape” special characters so they don’t mess up the parsing process. And as Rambo notes, this isn’t a bug with any security vulnerabilities; indeed, it shows Apple’s BlastDoor mechanism working correctly. “Many bad parsers would probably accept the incorrectly-formatted XHTML,” he writes, “but that sort of leniency when parsing data formats is often what ends up causing security issues. By being pedantic about the formatting, BlastDoor is protecting the recipient from an exploit that would abuse that type of issue.”